Metal Bass, what tone do you record with?!?

[gemini8026]

Im a total bass n00b, but some of you may have heard my mp3 postings before, I can do decent recordings, but Ive never studies GOOD bass tone. For some hardcore metal/thras/power metal, what are some typical settings. Any gain? Any scooping?!?

Tell me bass tone guru's, whats the best formula for better sounding bass in my metal mixes?!?!

[Endrik]

what are some typical settings

knowing some setting wont help you but since you asked it's FLAT with maybe a little hi boost...and that goes for every style. For rock and metal turning off the amp's parametric EQ is always a very good idea.

Any gain?

oh yes...definetly... there's gain in 95% bass tones you hear... yes even in crystal clear jazz and funk tones, you just don't hear distortion in the mix.

Any scooping?!?

that's the worst thing you can do.....

whats the best formula for better sounding bass

the best formula for good bass sound is ALLWAYS a good player + a good bass.
Bass is not like a guitar where amp is crucial for getting a good tone. All the tone comes from the fingers and the bass.

A good bass with good pickups is very important. Passive pickups sound more natural and warmer and combining it with onboard preamp (like Sadowski) is better than most active pickups, because passive pickups definetly sound fatter and thicker and the preamp gives you the necessary power and loudness.

For heavier music, P type of basses are definetly better than Jazz basses. P has more growl and is nastier wich is good for rock.
And 4 string bass is a must because they indeed sound better than 5 string basses. Most 5 string basses sound like shit, really good 5 string basses are very expensive. 4 string bass with down-tuning is better idea... if lower notes are needed.
And if some dude plays with 5 string bass and uses the low B, there's a 90% chance that the engineer just cuts it in the mix because low B is so fucking low that it can ruin the whole mix.

Now, what gear do you have allready and what's your budget.
If you wanna get a real hi end bass tone, then here's what I wrote in another thread:
"Line 1 directly to the board.
Line 2 to crossover.
From crossover the low freq. line went to Gallien Kurger solid state head, wich had a really clear and punchy clean sound.
The hi freq. line went to vintage Ampeg SVT head wich was overdriven.
Both stacks had 4x10 and 1x18 cabinets.

Some of the best hi-budget albums are recorded that way and live you get amazing power and clarity.
Direct in gives you the consistency and balance.
Real amp gives you the warm tone.
Distorting the lower frequencies can make the sound muddy, that's why corssover is used to leave the low end clear and you can distort the higher frequencies to get that awsome drive wich is good for rock music."

Drive is good for the music you want to do, but remember, overdriving the low frequencies can cause shit loads of mud.
Usually players tweak the gain knob so that when they hit the strings strongly you can hear distortion but when when hitting softly you can't.
But I think you need a little bit more drive.
Listen to bands like Tool or King's X. They have some of the greatest overdriven bass tones ever. Justin Chancellor of Tool allways records like I wrote before, but instead of Ampeg's he has Mesa Boogies.

Of course that's pretty expensive set-up.
If you don't have a good bass preamp then use a good DI box for direct recording. Tech 21 Sansamp Bass Driver DI is a very good thing.

But direct only doesn't give you the best results when it comes to rock/metal bass tones. You also need to record amp/cab setup.
With Sansamp Bass Driver you can split the singal, run one to the recording setup and the other one to the amp. If you don't have a bass amp then use a powerfull guitar amp. Mesa Boogie guitar amps usually work very well with bass guitars. The direct line from Sansamp must be a cleaner tone and the tone from amp must be dirtier, try to tweak with the Sansamp so the higher frequencies would go to the amp.

Flat settings are usually the best because you have to EQ a lot in the mix anyway. EQing bass isn't an easy job. You have to find the right freqs. wich to boost and wich to cut. The bass must not "eat" the drums. The "strong" freqs of the bass must not match with the kick drum's strong freqs...or with snare. Of course in 2Khz range there's the vocals and the guitar. Make the bass stand out above that range.
Bass guitar is often compressed, but not over-compressed.

Of course you have to experiment a lot and trust your ears. Compare your mix with some recordings you like all the time. It helps.

[gemini8026]

excellent, thanks endrik, i appreciate the time put into that post

[Endrik]

you are welcome man,

btw. I wanted to say "graphic EQ" not parametric before.

also remember that a lot of times a bass tone wich doesn't sound anything special alone can be awsome in the mix... and a great sounding bass tone can sound like shit in the mix.
Fenders are very good for making the mix sound good. They are old school, very simple but they fill the mix like motherfuckers. G&L and EB Musicman basses are awsome too for that..... if we talk about very good basses with reasonable price.
Some players who want to play flashy licks or whatever and can't afford very expensive basses like Ken Smith, Fodera etc. somehow always buy those god damn Warwicks. Warwicks can sound good when playing alone, all those licks'n'shit are clear. But in the mix.... and specially in heavy rock format they sound weak and don't support the other instruments well.... of course there's always exceptions.

[davis_bass_player]

Tone

Man, this is the best information I have ever seen - excellent email and thanks for taking the time to educate players.

Davis

[Jem]

+1!

Excellent info there Endrik, I'm gonna go back to my recordings and try splitting my bass tracks - I DI my Yamaha RBX-800A usually and just play with compression & EQ, adding drive to the whole sound has usually been disastrously muddy as you say.

Think I'll try sending one half through a hi-pass and adding some drive while putting the other half through a lo-pass and tweaking the compression with a little EQ and see what happens.

[horns666]

I'm not sayin'..

I'll let Brotha E do all that talking here..he's doing just fine.

My favorite bass amps for years are always bi-amped Carvin stacks consisting of 1-18" and 4-10" cabs. I always go a very crystal clear piano-like tone..

In fact the EXACT bass tone I go for is heard on the first Boston album..which is heard when the piano comes 57 seconds into the song "Foreplay" which is the intro to "Long Time".

[peabuddy]

DAMN BILL , a post not promoting g&L BASSES. I'M IMPRESSED! LOL j.k man i think e laid it down well. i hope to get as good a sound on my next cd

[Endrik]

Carvin amps are absolutely great for clear and punchy sound, no wonder a lot of leading jazz fusion players are using them. EBS hi-end stacks are awsome too.

But we have to talk about G&L
Most of the metal albums these days are recorded with basses wich have active pickups. And the most common basses used on those metal records don't sound anything over the top. They are just very "ordinary" sounding.
But then again bass is very quiet on most metal records, so the tone of the bass isn't really important.
But if you want to make your bass audiable and the tone is important then most active basses are kind of "plain" sounding.

Most of the super hi-end custom basses wich are made mostly for session jazz/fusion players have super sensitive active pickups. And I mean REALLY sensitive. If you gently touch them you allready have a slap sound. Those basses are great for virtuoso players but the pickups are too Hi-Fi and tend to sound too sterile. They are very clear sounding though.

If you don't want to have the combination of good ol' vintage pickups + an onboard preamp then G&L Magnetic-Field pickups are probably the best choice. You can use them in passive or active mode wich is a very cool thing. They are super hot, clear and punchy but unlike most of those hi-end custom pickups they aren't super sensitive and sterile. Instead of that you have warm vintage tone characteristics with a lot of power.

[horns666]

Carvin amps are absolutely great for clear and punchy sound, no wonder a lot of leading jazz fusion players are using them. EBS hi-end stacks are awsome too.

But we have to talk about G&L
Most of the metal albums these days are recorded with basses wich have active pickups. And the most common basses used on those metal records don't sound anything over the top. They are just very "ordinary" sounding.
But then again bass is very quiet on most metal records, so the tone of the bass isn't really important.
But if you want to make your bass audiable and the tone is important then most active basses are kind of "plain" sounding.

Most of the super hi-end custom basses wich are made mostly for session jazz/fusion players have super sensitive active pickups. And I mean REALLY sensitive. If you gently touch them you allready have a slap sound. Those basses are great for virtuoso players but the pickups are too Hi-Fi and tend to sound too sterile. They are very clear sounding though.

If you don't want to have the combination of good ol' vintage pickups + an onboard preamp then G&L Magnetic-Field pickups are probably the best choice. You can use them in passive or active mode wich is a very cool thing. They are super hot, clear and punchy but unlike most of those hi-end custom pickups they aren't super sensitive and sterile. Instead of that you have warm vintage tone characteristics with a lot of power.

Exactly..see I didn't have to say a word.

Nice E..

[xenophobe]

Some players who want to play flashy licks or whatever and can't afford very expensive basses like Ken Smith, Fodera etc. somehow always buy those god damn Warwicks. Warwicks can sound good when playing alone, all those licks'n'shit are clear. But in the mix.... and specially in heavy rock format they sound weak and don't support the other instruments well.... of course there's always exceptions.

While I agree a lot of shit players end up buying Warwicks, you can't just pass them off Warwick like that without being prejudiced... All ESPs suck too...

My bass tone was the best that any of my past three bands' members have ever heard, but then again, I've had a half dozen really sweet bass rigs and a number of bass guitars that I've bought and sold till I found "the sound".

"The sound" did not come cheap, but it's not all that expensive of a rig. I have a Warwick Thumb that goes through my Ampeg B5R head, and have my DBX DDP running through my FX loop at about 40% of the mix. It's freaking awesome, though I had to adjust from playing standard music (punk/ska/hardcore/heavy metal/rock) to playing technical death... I had to set my compression slightly stiffer and my limiter threshold slightly lower, if I remember correctly...

I have soft knee compression, and realitively heavy limiting... the trick was to get the fade to a deteriorating signal without any after effects without compressing or chopping off too much of the initial attack. I swear that took me months of playing around with EQ and compression settings, then months of rehearsal dialing in with drums and guitar... I have the side-chain EQ running in the mix, mainly to cut the high and slightly boost the low. I have the de-esser turned off noise gate on, and I pump a hot input signal through the DDP and reduce the gain of the exit signal back into the mix of my Ampeg.

Anyways, I have my bass set rather mid scooped, add the mid back in with my Ampeg EQ, and push that high gain signal to mix with the altered DDP signal I have in the mix and the end result is fascinating.

On a few occasions I've been able to step back and listen to someone else play a set on bass, and I couldn't believe how well it actually sounded... once playing an outdoors party from a distance through the forest I could just hear my bass cut through the mix and just sing... another time it was in a huge concrete and metal building, and to hear my bass just cut through... Anyways, just tooting my own horn here

As for a live signal, there is no way to mic up a bass and have it sound good. As for studio, direct-in from your bass, or from a direct out from your standard setup is ideal... Then again, I've only recorded once, and both plugging my bass directly in, or going from my amp's direct out both sounded excellent, though going direct bass picked up my picking way too much, and that's one thing that I kinda filtered out using the settings that I have on my DDP.

Oh well, not sure if that info is useful to anyone but me. :ROTF:

[xenophobe]

Im a total bass n00b, but some of you may have heard my mp3 postings before, I can do decent recordings, but Ive never studies GOOD bass tone. For some hardcore metal/thras/power metal, what are some typical settings. Any gain? Any scooping?!?

I generally have my bass scooped mids, and add all the mid back in the amp, and use the active eq bass knob on my bass to adjust my overall sound, some songs require a little more low end and others a little less, depending on how fast or technical I play... and I make sure my bass is capable of making the adjustments that I may need to make on the fly, depending what my friend in the crowd will tell me after a song or two... for live performances that is.

See my post above if you want to see what dynamics I have altering my sound. As for gain? Yes, lots. Sound shaping? Ampeg 2 or 3.

As for recording, like I said above, direct from your bass, with a sans-amp type preamp, or using the Direct Out on your amp will sound the best.

Ask the studio technician which he prefers, ask to try both, record a sample and have him play back before you lay down your tracks... expect to get this done quick, and make a fast choice...

[LEOKV2]

Hi Endrik, great help!

I've been doing a little research of my own in recording bass. My band is a hard-rock metal thing, and we wanted the bass to drive the whole thing, like, a lead instrument.

We use the famous "crunchy" tone combined with a very deep low boom.

For this, I have, in my own research, done the following.

To achieve this, I use an MXR Bass D.I., an Ibanez Tube Screamer and an ART TubePAC (mic preamp and compressor). The path is: TubeScreamer, MXR and ART. Then straight into my cheapo Soundblaster Live 5.1 sound card.

I used to mic the amp before (Hartke combo) but I found this direct thing to sound much better. I use the ART's compressor to get an even sound going, specially when he does slappin' and poppin', works great.

My question is, is there a way to have both sounds, like, a "clean and clear" signal from the direct setup and a dirty crunchy signal from the mic'd amp? What should I get, a mixer?

[Endrik]

While I agree a lot of shit players end up buying Warwicks, you can't just pass them off Warwick like that without being prejudiced... All ESPs suck too...

like I said there's allways exceptions. Most of the Warwicks sound weak in the mix... specially when a shitty player is playing 'em. Why? Because like I said modern basses are too sensitive. I've heard some really good Warwicks but I don't dig most of 'em.

The reason why you can't go wrong with Fenders....because they are cheap crap.... they were made for mass production and for average Joe's. Very little details and components, no exotic woods, no batteries, no micro schemes nothing. And because they are so simple are cheap they are fucking amazing.

As far as the noise gates go, if you don't use ridiculous settings live (one of the main reasons why bands sound shit live... some kid is using some cosmic settings... and bass is a fucking devil... no other instrument can fuck up the mix so much) you don't really need 'em... unless you are using MASSIVE amounts of distortion.

Marcus Miller who has absolutely the best bass tone I've ever heard allways gets complaints from the sound guy because of the noise durning the sound check. He has a very old Jazz bass. And when both pickups don't have the same volume level, there's shit loads of noise coming out of it. But he likes the sound when Bridge pickup is louder. So before the gig he balances the levels and when the band kicks in, he turns the neck pickup volume down a bit. No one notices the noise in the mix, and he doesn't get the "look" from the sound guy

[Endrik]

I forgot to mention that the most important thing getting a good sound (after good player and instrument) is arrangement. How the bass lines are written, how well they work together with the drums and harmonically fit together with guitars, singers etc. is REALLY important.

I've heard guys getting amazing overall sound with ridiculously crappy gear, they just arrenged the instrument parts so friggin well. If you have a crappy arrengements...even the most expensive gear wont save your ass. The biggest mistake wich a lot bands do is that the bass doesn't follow the drummer. The bass always has to play after the drums.... fuck the guitar.
The drums and the bass has to be tight together.... tight as anal sex. This will guarantee great dynamics and power... and flow.
Unnecessary wanking makes the whole band sound weak... and there will be lack of low end.