XTRR p'up switch and 24.78" tone characteristics?

[vector]

Snagged a XTRR off of a forum member here and had some issues with the bridge Blackout shorting out on me. A tech who did the work discovered that the p'ups had been switched, that is, the neck was in the bridge pos and the bridge in the neck pos. When I replaced the bridge p'up with an actual bridge model Blackout, the resulting tone was quite bit more harsh and "tinny" (more shrill, high EQ) than on my other Blackout equipped guitars. So my questions are:
1)Is it customary for Jackson to use neck p'ups in a bridge position in certain circumstances?

2) Is it "normal" for shorter scale axes to have different tonal characteristics from 25.5" scale ones? Or, is the change in tone due to a shortened distance of the p'up as a result of the 24 frets which scrunch the p'ups closer together?

[toejam]

You can use any pup in any position you choose. Most EMG users seem to like the 81 in the bridge and the 85 in the neck, but I prefer the opposite.

[vector]

You can use any pup in any position you choose. Most EMG users seem to like the 81 in the bridge and the 85 in the neck, but I prefer the opposite.

Thanks... but not the answers I'm looking for.

To anyone's knowledge, has Jackson ever been known to put neck pups in a bridge position (other than custom requests)?

Has anyone experienced discernable differences in tone when the scale is shortened or when the distance between p'ups and from the bridge.

[j2379]

yes short scale guitars have different tone characteristics

[toejam]

Thanks... but not the answers I'm looking for.

To anyone's knowledge, has Jackson ever been known to put neck pups in a bridge position (other than custom requests)?

Has anyone experienced discernable differences in tone when the scale is shortened or when the distance between p'ups and from the bridge.

I've not heard of Jackson doing that, but maybe somebody put the "wrong" pup in.

And as far as scale length, shorter scales do have different tonal characteristics.

Even on 25.5" scale guitars with 22 frets, a lot of people say the neck pup has a sweeter/warmer sound compared to one with 24 frets where it pushes the neck pup closer to the bridge and makes it sound a tiny bit brighter.

[vector]

I've not heard of Jackson doing that, but maybe somebody put the "wrong" pup in.

And as far as scale length, shorter scales do have different tonal characteristics.

Even on 25.5" scale guitars with 22 frets, a lot of people say the neck pup has a sweeter/warmer sound compared to one with 24 frets where it pushes the neck pup closer to the bridge and makes it sound a tiny bit brighter.

o
Hmmm. Other than trading up for 25.5 " scale, 22 fret RR (????) is there anything one can do to "enrich" the tone? Want to keep the tone of Blackouts actives without the shrill hi-end that comes from shorter scale and 24 frets.

[toejam]

The brighter sound shouldn't come from having a shorter scale, though. I'd chalk it up to wood being what it is.
I'd suggest swap the pups around and see if it gives you more of the sound you're looking for. Like you said before, the neck version pup in the bridge sounded better, right?

[vector]

The brighter sound shouldn't come from having a shorter scale, though. I'd chalk it up to wood being what it is.
I'd suggest swap the pups around and see if it gives you more of the sound you're looking for. Like you said before, the neck version pup in the bridge sounded better, right?

I did?:think: Never got a chance to play the neck version in the bridge spot as it arrived with a short in it.... almost immediately had the tech take it apart to diagnose and subsequently install the bridge version. Should be able to swap out the bridge for a neck pos. from another ax though... unlike the original p'ups, the new one is a quik connect version.

[toejam]

Ah, didn't realize you never got a chance to listen to it. With the quick connects, you'll indeed be able to easily swap and see.

[j2379]

Yeah short scale 24.75" guitars are usually not as bright & snappy as 25.5" scale. even my maple BCRichs (shortscale) arent as bright as my alder 25.5" guitars

[vector]

Yeah short scale 24.75" guitars are usually not as bright & snappy as 25.5" scale. even my maple BCRichs (shortscale) arent as bright as my alder 25.5" guitars

Uhh, my impression from this thread was that the shorted scale (along with compacted distance, due to 24 frets, of the p'ups) actually created a more "tinny" & shrill (missing mids) tone. It's got plenty of hi end- just sounds like "a swarm of angry hornets" as one member of my band put it . Always thought maple was a great tone wood for brights, whereas alder has a more warm tone from my experiences. That being said, a short scale maple sounding less bright and snappy would seem to indicate that it's the scale and the p'up placement causing that characteristic.

[toejam]

Shorter scale has nothing to do with whether a guitar has 22 or 24 frets,though.

[Trem]

after reading portions of your threads, imo ( a theory) the factory may have put a bridge pup in the guitar as expected, then when play testing or whatever before it shipped realized it was too harsh and swapped the pickups or whatever with a neck in the bridge at the last minute to rectify that. Custom shop being what it is, when the guitars supposed to ship, someone may have felt it was the only solution at that point. possibly? In the same way that people switch emgs around for kind of the same reasons, someone there may have been like, well...fuckit...ship it.


without digging back in the posts, i don't know the specs, but sounds like you are saying the body was ordered as maple?
If the guitar is shorter scale it would tend to not be as bright at a 25.5 scale - if it was ordered with a body that is maple - sometimes that is done to make up for a lack of brightness in a shorter scale guitar, and sometimes also for a more defined low end in 7 strings.

Imo, your solution is to try the neck back in the bridge or go with some different pickups, fuck the blackouts if they are not working in the guitar your just chasing your tail.

Maple can be VERY bright, espec if you've never owned one or are used to alder or mahog, you'll be thinking what the fuck this shit is ear piercing.
I like the body of it when complimented with a darker pickup and in combination with a tone knob, you can get the punchiest foot to the chest tones from it. But straight up it's too bright, like telecaster bright. Blackouts got that full range bright sizzly tone, would not be my choice in a maple guitar.
If it's not maple or is missed something, then i guess it doesn't apply save for the fact your not liking the brightness factor of the instrument. Time to look into some different pups or make adjustments on your amp, which goes without saying if your switching from a less bright guitar that you would normally use.


EDIT: Whatever the case, maple bodied or not - try some different pickups in the thing - i'd personally go passive if the guitar is naturally bright if for the fact you have more choices.

In my experience, i have 4 Killers 25.5" scale, they are all hard ash and very bright standard, i rectified that with a super3 and lower value pots and caps, 'in combination with my tone knob which is all the way down' as well and it's then perfect for me, believe me it's still not dark at all, it's punchy as hell. In fact when i brought it to practice going from a basswood guitar and the other guitarist using mahogany or basswood one or the other, my guitar punched right thru everything hard, another level, i had to turn down a lot more than i was before just so everyone else could balance and hear themselves.

Another guitar i had was an ESP MV this one being short scale made of hard ash. It had a duncan distortion in it, again too bright. I didn't keep it because of the short scale but if i did i would have whent to a darker pup.

hard ash or maple is a different animal whatever the scale.

[RyTard]

1)Is it customary for Jackson to use neck p'ups in a bridge position in certain circumstances?

In no way is Neck/Bridge swapping Customary as much as it is adaptive. It's a great way to warm up your sound. The end result can some times be unballanced because bridge pup almost always has a higher output.

2) Is it "normal" for shorter scale axes to have different tonal characteristics from 25.5" scale ones? Or, is the change in tone due to a shortened distance of the p'up as a result of the 24 frets which scrunch the p'ups closer together?

Absolutely!!!! Physics come into play here. What I can explain is something that instrument builders often call "Nodes".
Imagine this is your E string from nut to bridge


Even the smallest Shift of pup position can make a huge differance on how the pup reacts to the string. supposedly 22 fret guitars place their neck pup right in the middle of one of the nodes (the area of least vibration), and 24 fret guitars put it between 2 nodes. The lenght of your scale obviously changes the overall size of the Nodes and distributes that over the same sized pickups.

As far as blackouts go, I've got my hands tied with my set. I love them and I hate them. The neck pup has no soul, and the brigde is nasaly. I put the emg EXP active pot in to try to bring the neck pup back to life, it helps. One thing that really helps with the Blackouts is to put some space between them and the strings.
But from what I'm hearing, it sounds like your guitar will still be a bright one no matter what the circumstances.
Are you using steel fret wire?
Fret wire is sometimes overlooked and can make a warm guitar sound like stings on a coffee can when done wrong.
But there is no reason that your tone pot and amp wouldn't be able to compensate for the bright character of maple because the only difference is the "wings". It won't be a night and day difference from alder because it's not a bolt on or set neck. On a neck-through the main wood character comes from the neck wood.

[vector]

after reading portions of your threads,

Yeah, clearly. But thanks for your insight. Not that it's really that important but let's clarify: it's an alder body. (The maple reference was brought up by j2379 but is not relevant in this case.)

The shortened scale sounds like it's to blame for the harshness of the bridge p'up. Toejam, I mentioned 24 frets as a possible contributor to the problem i.e. causing the p'ups to have much closer proximity to each other, and a different placement under the strings. If that's not accurate, thanks for the correction. It was just a theory based on the fact that all my other Blackout equipped, 25.5" scale, 24 fret axes have more space between the p'ups and don't suffer from the harsh, shrill bridge p'up tone.

Lastly, if after switching out the bridge for the neck p'up doesn't help, I'm kinda screwed as I don't want passives in there. Love the higher output and rich tones the Blackouts provide. Cross yer fingers and hope that the p'up switch is sufficient.