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**Shawn Lutz** · 04-19-2003, 09:37 AM

Re: San Dimas vs. Ontario Jackson?

Excellent question. The answer is simple actually....when they moved from San Dimas to Ontario they left all the magic and guitar building knowledge behind with them never to be found again, thus making the Ontario made guitars on par with Hondo

Obviously I am just kidding and am interested in the answer too.

**jr73** · 04-19-2003, 09:53 AM

Re: San Dimas vs. Ontario Jackson?

LMAO....the hardware changed & so did the shape of some of the body's routes. tho you see the older style routes on some ontario made guitar. BIG D control route & single coils with no lip ONTARIO.

**Crankdaddy** · 04-19-2003, 10:09 AM

Re: San Dimas vs. Ontario Jackson?

Shawn -- thanks for the laugh! Hilarious. The way people talk about em and the way the price changes, it's almost as if that's the truth, it seems.

As for the Hondo quality, are you referring to the original Schezuan Hondos? Or after they moved to the Chung King factory?

**pro-fusion** · 04-19-2003, 01:35 PM

Re: San Dimas vs. Ontario Jackson?

There were modest hardware changes. Up until 1989, even the Ontario Jacksons were all custom-made, meaning that you can't make many generalizations about neck radius, finish, etc., because each instrument is different. In general, I would say that, based on my limited experience, the average neck during the early Ontario era was slightly thicker on the bolt-ons than during the SD period on the Charvels and very early Jackson bolt-ons, but that's based only my very limited experience. I'm sure others on this board would have a better idea about that. The move to Ontario saw the first use of the covered pickups with the Jackson logo on them, even though the company had been making its own pickups for awhile. Also, the default bridge switched from a Kahler to the JT-6 Floyd copy, though you could always send 'em a real Floyd to install on your custom order. And neck-thrus no longer came with binding over the frets as the default standard, though I'm sure they would still do that if you ordered it that way. As they will to this day if you order a custom guitar.

The biggest change came not with the move to Ontario, but with the beginning of USA standard production models in 1989. It's only at that point that you can really compare different examples of the same models down to the exact shape of the neck etc., since these instruments obviously weren't custom made and were supposed to be consistent.

Personally, I think a lot of the SD stuff is hype, although the mindset of the company probably did change when they moved to bigger digs in Ontario and introduced a line of mass-produced Japanese guitars. Certainly, the image did. Before that, Charvels and Jacksons were kind of a rare commodity--at least for those of us not in the biggest cities. After that, every music store had a dozen Japanese Charvels hanging on the wall and an increasing number of USA Jacksons, since the Ontario plant could produce more instruments. That obviously had an impact on the rarified 'aura' of the brand that lasts to this day.

**Jim Shine** · 04-19-2003, 01:58 PM

Re: San Dimas vs. Ontario Jackson?

It is all a matter of preferance. I personally don't care for the feel of Ontario necks. San Dimas necks feel chunkier in the spine, more like an older Fender neck rather than a flat and wide feel. Every Ontario Jackson I have owned or tried has had a much thicker finish than San Dimas guitars. Early Ontario guitars are great when the hardware is upgraded. In the 80's I used to wonder why Jackson USA guitars featured virtually identical hardware to their Japanese Charvel counterpart.

**peabuddy** · 04-19-2003, 02:12 PM

Re: San Dimas vs. Ontario Jackson?

well here's a related question, anyone know THE last number made at san dimas.my bass has a san dimas plate but number 1991. and are the cavity routs for basses different than guitars?

**oklaSTAR** · 04-19-2003, 02:54 PM

Re: San Dimas vs. Ontario Jackson?

I have a #33xx Jackson and I have a San Dimas Charvel. The Charvel has "magic", and the Jackson is an excellent guitar.

The neck profile is identical, the body route is the same, the Charvel just has a vibe that the Jackson doesn't...

It's like they changed wood sources when they moved to Ontario, and it has more sap in it or something.......

**WAR IN D** · 04-19-2003, 04:40 PM

Re: San Dimas vs. Ontario Jackson?

Interesting thread here.... and something I've oftened wondered about. While admittedly, I've never owned a San Dimas Charvel before now ( I just bought a "beater" that I'm gonna have refinned BUT without the original neck so I can't comment on back to back feel of the necks on these guitars), I do/have owned some 1987 model Jacksons with San Dimas plates on them. One that I sold to a member of the forum here (serial #4209, I believe... I've slept since then) and the other that I still have. The one I kept is serial #1615, just 110 plates after the move from San Dimas. I can say that this guitar for all intents and purposes is a Charvel with a Jackson logo on it.. And no, it doesn't have the Charvel plate with the Jackson logo, like a few rare birds out there have. The body routes are the same, the cavity routes are the same, same knob placement, brass in the control cavity, etc.... this guitar has a FACTORY applied ghraphic and is in the logbook at Jackson... granted, it's got a Kahler but this guitar with a Charvel logo sells all day long for $800/$1,000... I tried to sell my not too long ago for $850.00 shipped and no-one wanted it. Cool with me because it ain't leaving my side for any less [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img] !! But I will say that the guitar does have a "tone" that is definately unique, for lack of a better word. I don't really know how to describe it, call it "vibe", "mojo", "mystique", whatever..... It sounds different than guitars that are made today.. with the possible exception of GMW's. I've owned one of those and they too, are WONDERFULL guitars.. I don't know... there are alot of people here with much more experience with Charvels than I'll ever have... but if that Jackson of mine is anywhere close... I'm gonna be happy with the one I just bought when it's done..

**mulder1966** · 04-19-2003, 05:50 PM

Re: San Dimas vs. Ontario Jackson?

I have a San Dimas strat #1081 and an Ontario #33xx. Both are identical as far as configuration but #1081 has a smaller cavity route, and the #33xx has a reverse headstock. But in the 17 or so years i've owned them, I play the Ontario 4:1 over the San Dimas. I like the feel of the #33xx better, and I think it has better tone and sustain. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

**YetAnotherOne** · 04-19-2003, 06:09 PM

Re: San Dimas vs. Ontario Jackson?

I've had a few of each but tend to prefer the Ontario guitars for their consistency. I've never had an Ontario guitar that was anything less than a fantastic player but I have had a couple of clunkers from San Dimas. One was a Soloist and the other a Rhoads. The Rhoads (RR 09XX) was particularly bad, it didn't have much sustain and the neck just never felt good. Both were in great shape and completely stock. On the other hand, RR 14XX is an exceptional guitar and has been my main guitar since I brought it home in '85. The bottom line for me is that I wouldn't hesitate to buy anything from about '89 on sight unseen so long as it was in good condition and hadn't been physically altered. But the farther back you go, the more I'd want to play the guitar before shelling out the bucks.

**Newc** · 04-19-2003, 09:19 PM

Re: San Dimas vs. Ontario Jackson?

There's *always* someone who feels that moving from one place to another upsets some mystical balance and therefore results in lesser quality in some way. It's all hype. It's a psychological block. Nothing more. The wood does not have more/better tone. It is all in your mind because you WANT there to be "something special" because you perceive it as an end; a death of sorts.
Yes, neck profiles will ALWAYS be slightly different between handmade necks. Bodies will be different as well. Finishes and paintjobs and all that is done by hand will be different (better/worse) when it is done by hand. That is a universal fact, not "vibe". Geographic location of origin has very little to do with those differences, especially when the difference in distance is only a few miles.

As long as someone can sucker someone else into overpaying for anything made in the San Dimas facility by intermediate-level luthiers, the "vibe" lives on.

Newc

**Jim Shine** · 04-19-2003, 09:48 PM

Re: San Dimas vs. Ontario Jackson?

Which is why I pointed out many changes occured before they even left San Dimas. To say late 80's Jackson necks feel like San Dimas necks is crazy. They were definately changed to accomodate the trends. Even the neck angle changed (on neck throughs). The finish is also thicker later on. It has little to do with hand sanding and more to do with extra coats of finish. Ontario guitars on average have an almost 50% thicker finish over SD guitars. Graphics models are almost 75% thicker. Other changes I didn't care for later on was the scooped out neck heels on bolt ons (that like to crack).

Yeah, maybe they were intermediate luthiers, but atleast they were luthiers! Look at a respected company like Fender which hired orange pickers to build their most sought after instruments.

[ April 19, 2003, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: Jim Shine ]

**diablomozart** · 04-19-2003, 10:38 PM

Re: San Dimas vs. Ontario Jackson?

they're all pretty much custom made instruments...the whole sd vs. ontario is kind of a joke to me...i've played great ones and dogs from both eras...find a guitar you like and don't worry if it's sd or ontario...it's the only way you'll end up happy...d.m.

**straycat** · 04-20-2003, 06:29 AM

Re: San Dimas vs. Ontario Jackson?

Well I've had both charvel 5490 1986 (jackson logo)strat headstock,floyd and graphic.The paint eas very thin.unfinished maple neck. Very chunky neck.This guitar had tons of tone.
6583 ontario 1987 (san dimas neck plate)thin neck un finished.Thick rosewood fingerboard,1 hum just like the san dimas charvel, jt6 trem, very thick finish.This guitar is much heavier in weight and plays like a dream and has an abundance of tone as well.I'd be hard pressed to pick between them.
I did sell the charvel but I still have the jackson if that says anything.

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San Dimas vs. Ontario Jackson?

San Dimas vs. Ontario Jackson?

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