Scarf Joint

[LarryL]

Re: Scarf Joint - I\'d rather not

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I thought a scarf joint was when there is stem or seed in there that makes the joint burn unevenly [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Why do I think that this might actually be the case at the Charvel factory circa 1981? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[mm2002]

Re: Scarf Joint - I\'d rather not

In my opinion a scarf joint is ONLY a cost cutting measure. By using that type of cut you can make an "angled headstock" neck from a single piece of 3/4" thick material for the neck, and only a short piece of 3" thick material for the headstock. A one piece neck requires at least a 3" thick slab long enough for the whole neck which is MUCH more expensive and requires a lot more machining (and produces a lot more waste). The 3 piece necks are probably the most expensive to make because they require the most machining, and a nice one will be made from 3 thick slabs with alternating grains. 3 piece are definitely the most stable and rigid of the three methods.

[j2379]

Re: Scarf Joint - I\'d rather not

my soloists has a one piece neck NO scarf joint. the neck has been stripped so no need to look for seems.

[Budman68]

Re: Scarf Joint - I\'d rather not

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3 piece are definitely the most stable and rigid of the three methods.

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<font color="aqua">I couldn't agree more. # piece is the way to go for stability. </font>

[xenophobe]

Re: Scarf Joint - I\'d rather not

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In my opinion a scarf joint is ONLY a cost cutting measure.

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One piece angled pointy headstocks WERE done. Many of them had warping issues. Making the neck two piece with a scarf joint eliminated this.

[TDurden]

Re: Scarf Joint - I\'d rather not

So what's the difference between the CS quote form's "Three Piece" and "Multi Laminate"? Based on Jim Shine's post and pic (here), it seems to be the same thing?

[slo100]

Re: Scarf Joint - I\'d rather not

Of all the Charvel and Jackson (bolt-on) guitars I have owned I have experienced warping/twisting issues with 5 Fender style necks and only one Jackson style neck (what most people call "pointy"). I have owned about three times the number of Jackson style necks vs. Fender style, FWIW.

My experience has been that the stability of the Jackson style (pointy) necks is better than one piece necks on bolt-on guitars. I have not ever had an issue with a neck through Jackson in terms of twisting or warping (scarf or not).

I do have a number of guitars with Jackson style necks with repairs at the scarf joint so in terms of structural integrity it is certainly a weakness.

In my experience, the Fender style necks are much more susceptible to twisting, warping, moving due to humidity changes, and the worst problem of them all...the raised tongue.

The best looking and feeling neck I have is on a 1982 Charvel. It is a one-piece, flame maple, oiled finish, Fender style neck and it is super unstable. I agree the oiled finish does not contribute much too keeping these necks from moving. The feel of the oil is spectacular but I guess you pay for that in stability. I think the flames on the neck also contribute to the issues on that neck.

Jim, you can probably speak better from a Fender perspective on this but when I had a Charvel Fender style neck planed (due to a raised tongue) Matt Baker at Action Music told me it is a bolt-on thing and not necessarily due to the oiled finish. My understanding is bolt-on guitars of all makes and vintages, lacquered or not, have suffered similar fates. It think it is part of the nature of that style construction. Cost-cutting measure or not, I think scarfed guitar necks at least help to counter this to some degree due to two pieces of wood being joined and the resulting break in the grain.

While I certainly understand the cost-cutting fallout effect of scarfed neck construction, that may not have been the singular driver. The only one piece Jackson style neck that I've seen so far was reported to have a slight warp to it. I am sure more were made and perhaps others with varying construction techniques. All we know is what they finally decided on moving forward with as a standard. It'd be interesting to know more about the process (if anyone remembers).

I realize it is hard to state concrete facts when we've all had experiences subjective to what guitars we've owned, what's gone wrong with them, and who we've talked to about various issues. I think it is difficult to make sweeping generalizations about these things. Even me saying Fender style necks are more unstable is certainly questionable. I am just sharing what I've experienced and learned.

Great topic!
Bret

[Jim Shine]

Re: Scarf Joint - I\'d rather not

Bret, 99% of the raised tongue issues on old Fender necks is due to the factory not sealing up the truss rod adjuster nut hole. Moisture gets in and swells the wood (it is all end grain down there). I was taught to seal up the truss rod nut hole after a refret to prevent this happening again. To this day when I get a neck with that old style nut, I always seal that hole up with finish when I have it apart for cleaning and setup. You would be amazed how much finish that little area can drink up.

[gtrbuyer]

Re: Scarf Joint - I\'d rather not

wow..very cool info Jim..never knew that.

[lantz_c]

Re: Scarf Joint - I\'d rather not

Scarf joints might be a cost cutting measure but it's also a very smart design feature for necks with angled headstocks. A neck with a scarf joint will be stronger than a one piece neck with an angled headstock because you have to cut through the grain of the wood to create the headstock angle on the one piece neck. The scarf joint keeps the grain line intact. It might not be that significant on a guitar though, the neck is probably not put under enough stress to really make a difference, but on thin Jackson and Ibanez style necks it may make a difference.

[xenophobe]

Re: Scarf Joint - I\'d rather not

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So what's the difference between the CS quote form's "Three Piece" and "Multi Laminate"? Based on Jim Shine's post and pic (here), it seems to be the same thing?

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This is a multi-laminate neck... which is the strongest, most stable and best looking type of neck, in my opinion...



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3772610374

I guess one could say this is a cost cutting measure too ( [img]/images/graemlins/bs.gif[/img] ) , because they don't need solid blanks of wood, only small strips of various scrap wood and lots of glue. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Jim Shine]

Re: Scarf Joint - I\'d rather not

"I guess one could say this is a cost cutting measure too ( ) , because they don't need solid blanks of wood, only small strips of various scrap wood and lots of glue"

I was thinking about that, but on the 3 piece necks that isn't quite true. You need 3 pieces of wood each almost enough to create one bolt on (bolt on width used for neckthrough depth, and bolt on thick for neckthrough width) to give enough wood to create the tilted back headstock, neck angle and body thickness demands.

[xenophobe]

Re: Scarf Joint - I\'d rather not

Look at the two thickest flamed maple laminates on that laminate... those two pieces probably started out as almost enough wood for two necks. If you'd notice, the laminate is full body thickness, as opposed to normal C/J neckthrus which have a slab of body material applied to the back of the neck to make it the same thickness of the body. Slap those blanks sideways, and it looks like about the same thickness of standard Jackson n/t wood stock.

[noodlesatf]

Re: Scarf Joint - I\'d rather not

I've always seen scarf joints as a design to strengthen a weak area. Part of why multi-laminate necks are so strongs is because the glue joint is actually stronger than the wood grain itself, especially when the joint is made with opposing grain patterns.

How many one-piece necks have you seen with broken headstocks? This happens a lot to Gibson Les Pauls, since they use a weaker neck wood (mahogany), and a one-piece neck design. They tried to combat it in the seventies with a volute, but for some reason everyone hated a lump on the back of the neck. Martin still uses a volute to this day.

A one-piece, angled headstock neck is not as expensive as one might think. If you are a large volume manufacturer, you can buy thick enough planks of maple to make two necks out of. Imagine two necks, laid back to back, with the headstocks facing opposite directions. The headstock of one begins where the other neck ends. Gibson cuts their necks this way, using planks just wide enough--flip a Les Paul over, and you can see the two small piece of mahogany glued onto the sides of the headstock. They get these pieces from the scraps remaining after cutting the two necks from the plank.

Scarf joints are a win-win situation for a volume seller. Not only do you strengthen a weak area, but buy sawing the plank at an angle to create the scarf joint, you are able get an angled headstock neck out of a smaller plank of wood, saving money. The only real advantage of a one-piece neck is the enhanced resonance of a single piece of wood vibrating free of any glue joints--a almost trivial difference in your tone that will only be perceived slightly by those with the pickiest of ears.

Scarf joints have gotten a bad rap because of manufactures with low QA standards. Breaks at the joint almost always can be attributed to too much or too little glue. Too little, and you don't get a complete bond. Too much, and a clean joint is never established because the glue gets in the way. The rest of the cases can usually be chalked up to using the wrong kind of glue for the application. I have a buddy that used to work for Taylor, and he said that they used seven different kinds of glue to complete one guitar!

[Jim Shine]

Re: Scarf Joint - I\'d rather not

Yeah xeno, I see the two full necks blanks in that one.

The scarf joint is stronger on woods like mahogany, but not maple. You can even see a difference in how they break. A scarf joint neck breaks along the scarf joint, one piece necks tend to crack from the nut up along the back of the headstock, often with the grain. Over the years of fixing many brands of guitars, most head cracks on maple necks I see are either on Floyd nut with screws through the neck, or scarf joint necks.

Taylor now is dovetail jointing heads. There is a reason for the change.