So if ALL I want different is a reverse head...

[Robotechnology]

So if ALL I want different is a reverse headstock, does that make it automatically a custom shop piece? Soloist hard tail would be the model specifically I'm talking about but, I'm also referring to any USA Jackson as well.

[Newc]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head...

Man I'd love to walk through the Custom Shop and have a serious talk with these guys about these "simple changes":

-You make a Lefty model, correct? You use a scarf joint where the head and neck are two separate pieces. Put a Lefty head on a Righty neck. Then do the logo and inlays. BAM! You're done. No retooling required.

-You make 2-hums guitars. DON'T CUT the 2nd hum. Leave it as a 1-hum. BAM! You're done. No retooling required.

-You have to carve the fretboards to receive inlays. Don't. BAM! You're done. No retooling required.

-You make a KV2. You make a Rhoads. Put Rhoads wings on a KV2 neck. BAM! You're done. No retooling required.

-You have a bin of black hardware, a bin of chrome hardware, and a bin of gold hardware. Unless the bins were arranged by the gang from Most Extreme Elimination Challenge, just swap one color for the other - it CANNOT be a physical burden on anyone to swap colors.

-You're going to put binding on a neck and headstock. Grab a different color. BAM! You're done. No retooling required.

If it's not a physical burden (such as rebuilding a template, or otherwise doing non-production-standardized adjustments to the machinery), then I say it shouldn't be a "Custom Shop Only" option, and I'd really like someone to explain IN DETAIL why it's so hard to get these changes made. An SL1 ordered with a reverse headstock does NOT require its own Model Number. A buttload of SL1s with reverse headstocks would require their own model number (add and R to the end of the current number - BAM! You're done. No retooling required), but when you get a buttload of orders for them, that's when you change the Model Number and add it to the catalog as a USA Select.

And yes, all of this applies to Imports as well.

Newc

[pitboss]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head...

Newc, I wish you ran the Custom Shop !

[paddok]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head...

I agree with Newc completly.

I wish there was an intermediate custom shop. You couldn't get full out customs done, and price would be a bit more (small), but you could do some variations on basic designs!

I don't see why doing things like a 24 fret Rhoads would be a big deal. Take a soloist neck and put Rhoads wings on it.

I'd really enjoy an h/s/s config on a Rhoads!

[Tekky]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head...

But how will the company know what to put in the stores? One of the best ways of marketing your product is to have the product in the stores for folks to look at, try, and buy.

[StukaJU87]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head...

Originally posted by TEKKY:
But how will the company know what to put in the stores? One of the best ways of marketing your product is to have the product in the stores for folks to look at, try, and buy.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They could START by putting ANY new USA's in stores. Both Guitar Centers near me have had ZERO new Jackson USA's in about a year. They've got plenty of imports but no USA's. [img]graemlins/brow.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

[Newc]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head...

Put the current models in the stores. When serious customers come in (as opposed to tire kickers), they would say "Nice Rhoads, but I wish it had 24 frets" (just like they do right now), and the Dealer can let them know that it IS available.

In this Digital Age, many people are doing online research before they buy, and when they hit an online Jackson dealer (MF, AMS, etc) they'll see these options are available. The internet is a wonderful product catalog, use it as such. MF is huge, and they've always listed items that were not in their physical possession in their catalogs and website, so this would be no different. Someone will order one from either them or their local/favorite dealer, and then they place the order for it. It comes in no later than any other USA Select order would come in.

I do feel that if Dealers ordered these models and they were available at USA Select pricing, they'd sell. The current USA Selects sell, right? I see Lloyd's still got those $4000+ Custom Shop NAMM models. Why? They're $4000+ and have one hum, a stringthrough/TOM, and a fancy graphic (the Anime/Dragon and the Custom Shop Logo Soloists). Take away the fancy graphic and it's just a one-hum stringthru Soloist. Put a USA Select Price on it and it's gone.

Newc

[sambencuda]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head...

Newc is right. I wouldn't even mind paying a "nominal" fee for any of these upgrades. So if you wanted an SL2T with reverse head and no inlays, it would cost you maybe $100 or $200 more that a production model. Makes sense to me. That way, we get what we want and Fender gets a little cash to boot! I have a feeling it's like that so they can make the most $$$. Can you image the jing the custom shop would lose if they offeres these changes?

[toejam]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head...

I totally agree, Newc! [img]graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

Carvin offers choice of body wood; ebony, maple or rosewood boards; MOP or abalone block and dot inlays, no inlays at all; black, chrome or gold hardware; choice of any of the different pickups they make, not to mention any configuration you want... S/S/S, H/H, H/S/H, H, H/S, even the Bolt body is routed for H/H/H under the pickguard; if you want no tone control, no problem; active electronics; piezo option on hardtail or Wilkinson; standard, reverse, 3+3 or V headstock; different bridges such as TOM/string-thru, TOM/stoptail, hardtail, Floyd, Wilkinson. You can even specify if you want different wiring options for the pickups. Of course, all of this is a slight upcharge, but not a big deal.
How come Jackson can't do something like this?

[veemagic]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head...

Newc for president!!! Preach on brother, you're making tons of sense. [img]graemlins/notworthy.gif[/img]
Oh wait it will never work then. [img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

[Newc]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head...

Originally posted by sambencuda:
Newc is right. I wouldn't even mind paying a "nominal" fee for any of these upgrades. So if you wanted an SL2T with reverse head and no inlays, it would cost you maybe $100 or $200 more that a production model. Makes sense to me. That way, we get what we want and Fender gets a little cash to boot! I have a feeling it's like that so they can make the most $$$. Can you image the jing the custom shop would lose if they offeres these changes?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, I would mind even a slight upcharge for most of these options. I look at it in terms of physical exertion:
Preface; since obviously I don't work for Jackson and don't make guitars period, I can't say for sure that I know how to make a headstock with a scarf joint, ergo I don't know if the joint is symmetrical, so I don't really know for 100% certain if you can just swap out a righty head for a lefty head and have it line up correctly with a righty neck.

Assuming that it DOES line up, there's absolutely NO extra physical effort required to put a lefty (reverse righty) head on a righty neck.
For that matter, there's no extra physical labor involved in pulling a lefty neckthrough (head, neck, tenon) out of a bin and mounting it on a righty body. You gotta do the inlays, frets, and binding anyway, right? Or do the necks go from start to finish before they're placed in the box?

From the pics I've seen of the CS, they travel in various stages around the shop - cutting the head/neck, mounting the board, doing the inlays, setting the frets, etc.

So, you got a guy cutting inlay channels in a fretboard already, just have him do standard fins on a lefty neck, put on the binding with the side markers on the righty side (left of the board), and it's a reverse headed neck with reverse fins on a righty body. And you did not have to change any machinery or otherwise work with a non-standard setup - you made a lefty neck and put it on a righty body, just as easily as you would make a righty neck for a righty body.

24 fret RR - same thing: no extra physical labor. You put a KV2 neck on Rhoads wings and it's done.

If Jackson makes up the fretboards like Gibson does (completely bound and inlaid and fretted before being attached to the neck) then it may include a bit more work regarding the side markers, but that's IF the boards are being done that way. If they're not inlaid/fretted/bound til they're on the neck, where's the extra cost coming from?

And how much extra does it cost to NOT route for a pickup or NOT drill a hole? It's actually saving electricity to make a one-hum, one knob guitar.

I work in a factory that makes metal parts. Yes there are times we have to change the dies, punches, matrixes, add punches, dimples, etc etc, but you know what the most-common change we make is? Part number and fitting. We have 200+ different part numbers of one particular size, and only about 20-25 actual physical differences (hole size and amounts) - the other 180+ differences are the fitting that goes in the hole and the number on the back of it, and it takes no mentionable effort to change the number or the fittings being used (other than the actual lifting of the box and turning of the screw).
A lot of times all I have to change is ONE number in the stamp, and I can run the new part - 2 minutes if I take my time.

I do wish Jackson would take a serious look at implementing the "easy-to-do" options for USA Selects, and get away from the "but that's not the way we do it" or "that's not following the model specs" mindset.
Everything is negotiable, and everything is subject to changes.

Newc

[quiksilver]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head...

Newc,

I couldn't agree more! What a simple, cheap way for FMIC/Jackson to make more money, sell more Jacksons, and make us all happier!

Imagine this upgrades/options list in your new Jackson catalog:

Added cost upgrades/options:
+$50 Reverse headstock
+$50 No inlays
+$100 Substitute EMGs w/batt cavity for Seymours
+$50 Sub 1 hum, 1 volume
+$50 Sub G&G faux snakeskin case for plastic case
+$50 Sub brushed metal finish case for plastic
+$50 Sub Black, Chrome, Satin or Gold hardware

For FMIC/Jackson, these are NO BRAINERS. They cost Jackson virtually nothing (or save them money, e.g., putting only 1H, 1 vol. into a guitar instead of multiple pickups and controls), and they get to charge us extra $!

Computer manufacturers offer more customization than this on $800 computers. Apple will laser engrave a $350 iPod with the phrase of my choice for free. Jackson could do it on a $1300 USA Select guitar.

And while I'm at it, here are a couple of new models that would require little to no retooling to offer.

SL1H - This is basically an SL2H, but with only one humbucker and 1 volume - and an oil finish neck. Sell it wth an EMG for the same price as the current SL2H with 2 Seymours.

SLATF - Reissue the early 90's Soloist Archtop Professional (archtop mahogany body w/maple cap, Floyd Rose, 24.75" scale, etc.) as a USA model. Price it like a SLATQ.

Originally posted by Newc:
Man I'd love to walk through the Custom Shop and have a serious talk with these guys about these "simple changes":

-You make a Lefty model, correct? You use a scarf joint where the head and neck are two separate pieces. Put a Lefty head on a Righty neck. Then do the logo and inlays. BAM! You're done. No retooling required.

-You make 2-hums guitars. DON'T CUT the 2nd hum. Leave it as a 1-hum. BAM! You're done. No retooling required.

-You have to carve the fretboards to receive inlays. Don't. BAM! You're done. No retooling required.

-You make a KV2. You make a Rhoads. Put Rhoads wings on a KV2 neck. BAM! You're done. No retooling required.

-You have a bin of black hardware, a bin of chrome hardware, and a bin of gold hardware. Unless the bins were arranged by the gang from Most Extreme Elimination Challenge, just swap one color for the other - it CANNOT be a physical burden on anyone to swap colors.

-You're going to put binding on a neck and headstock. Grab a different color. BAM! You're done. No retooling required.

If it's not a physical burden (such as rebuilding a template, or otherwise doing non-production-standardized adjustments to the machinery), then I say it shouldn't be a "Custom Shop Only" option, and I'd really like someone to explain IN DETAIL why it's so hard to get these changes made. An SL1 ordered with a reverse headstock does NOT require its own Model Number. A buttload of SL1s with reverse headstocks would require their own model number (add and R to the end of the current number - BAM! You're done. No retooling required), but when you get a buttload of orders for them, that's when you change the Model Number and add it to the catalog as a USA Select.

And yes, all of this applies to Imports as well.

Newc

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[Newc]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head...

So for $150 extra you get one-hum, reverse headstock, and no inlays.

Guys, that's ass-backwards thinking; You're PAYING someone to do NOTHING. It doesn't COST MORE to DO LESS, ergo, it should not COST MORE to GET LESS. If anything, a one-hum, one volume, no inlay guitar should cost less since less effort went into it, but I'd be happy to pay the same price as if it DID have both hums and both knobs and inlays.

As for the other options you mentioned (cases, pickups, etc) I know custom finishes on a case cost more, and adding a battery box for EMGs costs more, as well as oiling a normally painted neck, so I can see upcharges for those as it does involve extra physical effort and/or interrupting the standard production process, but not if it's just a question of grabbing from a different pile of ready-made parts.

Newc

[A. Pulver]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head...

Are we gonna have this discussion once or twice a year???
McD explained this 1 a while back.
In a couple threads even.

http://www.jcfonline.com/ubb/noncgi/...1;t=001604;p=1

http://www.jcfonline.com/ubb/noncgi/...1;t=001578;p=1

Seeing what the proto was, compared to what was specced, I don't think it's a good idea.
I think these guys must have alot on their minds.
Don't give them anything more to think about. [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[ June 30, 2004, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: A.Pulverizer ]

[The Eristic]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head...

Originally posted by Newc:
So for $150 extra you get one-hum, reverse headstock, and no inlays.

Guys, that's ass-backwards thinking; You're PAYING someone to do NOTHING. It doesn't COST MORE to DO LESS, ergo, it should not COST MORE to GET LESS. If anything, a one-hum, one volume, no inlay guitar should cost less since less effort went into it, but I'd be happy to pay the same price as if it DID have both hums and both knobs and inlays.

Newc

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">+1

Upcharging for no inlay and/or one hum is stupid. Both options save the builder both labor and material costs. Go talk to a custom builder who includes some sort of inlay as a standard feature. They'll often knock up to $1k off the base price just for going with a blank board.