So if ALL I want different is a reverse head...

[Tekky]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

[ QUOTE ]
So why doesn't Jackson make a good business decision and canvass the dealers or even this forum for a feel for the demand for a reverse-head guitar or a single-hum guitar built to USA production specs? Please understand that I'm not saying that I'd order one (I would if I had the cash), but there seems to be at least a small market for it. It seems to me that it might be a good business decision for Jackson/FMIC to find out what the customers want.

In a more cynical way of thinking, if Jackson won't do it for a reasonable price or at all, serious customers will find another source for a similar guitar, be it GMW, a custom builder or even used Jacksons already on the marketplace. Either way, Jackson/FMIC loses that income.

[/ QUOTE ]
In some ways they do, but the problem is that when you poll something like this board EVERYTHING becomes a custom shop. That's why the only way any Limited Editions worked out is when someone came up with the specs first, worked out a deal with a dealer, and then solicited interest (not suggestions or modifications) from the peanut gallery. Go through the archives, I can remember at least 3 times where limited editions were started, but stalled because nobody could agree on what the specs were. I think from these limited editions JCMI gets a better idea of what folks on the JCF want. (the Charvel San Dimas Standards are mostly single humbuckers like the GX-LE Bullseye)

Instead of playing a guessing game, FMIC just goes with what is marketable.

[Newc]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

Yes there have been a couple of times where dealers AND Jackson personnel have come here asking "what would you like to see", and it was a nuthouse - 500 different fully-spec'd models.
As for the LEs, you can see for yourself how people fight to the death over trivialities such as pickup model, # of controls, and the like, but get downright abusive with color, wood, and construction.
As Tekky said, it's better to have the model fully spec'd and approved by a dealer/JCMI like the JCF series and ask who wants it "AS-IS".

Newc

[xenophobe]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

[ QUOTE ]
Whoa there, Xeno. I was simply suggesting that it might be worth Jackson's time to consider a small run, given that there might be a "small" market for it. Perhaps a little market research might yield a finding that there is just enough of a market to make financial sense for Jackson/FMIC to do a run of something like a reverse-head guitar. It was just a suggestion.

I did not say that Jackson should force-feed guitars to dealers or somehow force buyers to purchase them. (I'm not exactly certain how they could do that...) It was simply a thought that maybe something unique like a short run of relatively inexpensive reverse-head USA Jacksons might be snatched up by interested dealers. I never once suggested that anyone would be forced against their will to get one of those guitars.


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that's exactly what you said. If Jackson decides to make a non-standard guitar, then they need to do a lot of unnecessary leg work. FIND stores that will buy their non-standard guitars. How will they do this? Either they will have to advertise them heavily (and bring the prices up to reflect this extra effort), or force the stores to each buy one to keep their Jackson dealerships. Given the order and distribution method Jackson uses, there is no other way around this fact.

The only way to get this accomplished is to have a dealer order a limited run, and pay the burdens of doing such a deal... like prepaying for 10 or more units, and hoping he can sell them.

The reason Jackson WILL do specific limited runs, because IT FITS INTO THEIR PRODUCTION ROUTINE... sorry to type all caps, but this has been repeated a few times in this thread, and nobody seems to understand that they ARE willing to make minor changes, but only if you order a batch, which makes it possible for them to treat it more like a production run as oppsed to one-off customs.

[img]/images/graemlins/brow.gif[/img]

[sambencuda]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

Gibson, Fender and PRS all have their specific models and any division would be a custom shop. Why is it so important that Jackson make these so called "minor" changes when the three major manufacturers won't do it? You can't get a Fender strat with a reverse head stock unless you go to the custom shop. I don't think there is enough of a reason on Jackson's part to make "minor" changes on their production models. It just doesn't make sense for them to tie one specific guitar to a specific individual because of a reverse head stock. Plus, People are still buying Jacksons. This isn't hurting their business so why change? I'm all for them making more models, but there is no reason for them to take on the cost and effort to implement these kinds of changes.

Newc, I think you really need to take that field trip to Ontario, CA and let us know what the deal is. It will at least put closure to this never ending topic! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[fuel0707]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

[quote/]Actually, that's exactly what you said. If Jackson decides to make a non-standard guitar, then they need to do a lot of unnecessary leg work. FIND stores that will buy their non-standard guitars. How will they do this? Either they will have to advertise them heavily (and bring the prices up to reflect this extra effort), or force the stores to each buy one to keep their Jackson dealerships. Given the order and distribution method Jackson uses, there is no other way around this fact.

The only way to get this accomplished is to have a dealer order a limited run, and pay the burdens of doing such a deal... like prepaying for 10 or more units, and hoping he can sell them.

The reason Jackson WILL do specific limited runs, because IT FITS INTO THEIR PRODUCTION ROUTINE... sorry to type all caps, but this has been repeated a few times in this thread, and nobody seems to understand that they ARE willing to make minor changes, but only if you order a batch, which makes it possible for them to treat it more like a production run as oppsed to one-off customs.

[img]/images/graemlins/brow.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

A friend of mine runs a very nice guitar shop in the Seattle area. One of the lines they carry is Taylor. Taylor has been known to make several limited edition and special-run guitars. These guitars are usually so sought after that Taylor will sometimes only offer these guitars to select dealers because the demand for them would outstrip Taylor's ability to produce them. In this instance, dealers are not "forced" to purchase them and Taylor's "legwork" to move these instruments simply involves putting the word out via e-mail or their sales rep force. No additional cost is incurred to get the instruments out of the factory and into dealer showrooms. And not surprisingly, the guitars are offered "as is" in these instances, with no hassle over custom changes to the instruments.

With that in mind, I was simply conjecturing that a special run of Jacksons might produce similiar results. Perhaps to simplify the situation of "500 different specs", Jackson could say that the guitars will be HH or HSS and three different colors will be produced, rather similar to the Shannon Soloists, if I recall correctly. That way, if a dealer is interested, they'd have a relatively simple decision to make and no one would have to "spec out" a bunch of different models nor would Jackson need to handle 500 different orders.

Honestly, it was just a suggestion.

[xenophobe]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

The Shannon wasn't a "limited" guitar. It was a special production run of over what... 200+ guitars?

Sure, I guess they could do that. It just doesn't sound like something they do all too often, and when they do (now, like the Charvel 25th An. stuff), they're going to be at custom shop prices anyways. I'm not against it, and I would like to see some production rev-headstock guitars.

[LesPaulCustom]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

[ QUOTE ]
The Shannon wasn't a "limited" guitar. It was a special production run of over what... 200+ guitars?

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="yellow">Actually, the number was much lower than 200.

It is actually closer to the low 100's from what I understand.

Here is the breakdown as I understand it:

50 Black (Standard Color)
56 Blue Ghost Flame
8 Slime Green
2 White
1 Orange Sherbert
? Custom Orders (Carlos Cavazo from Quiet Riot for example)

Brett and Doc know more about these than just about anybody I've talked with.

</font>

[RP]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

So, let's say I order a Charvel USA Standard, and I say "You know, one hum is just too limiting, I want a two hum model", so I check the two hum option for $150.

Is there going to be a deal where I have to wait for 24 other people to order a two hum model before they'll make my guitar?

I know they do guitars in batches with the Jackson Select line. Are these options going to be handled the same way on the Charvel line?

Seems to me that's potentially more costly than just making the small change when the order comes in (since it's entirely possible they could end up with 25 v-trem stars with rosewood boards and an HSS layout that they can't sell).

With so many potential combinations the new Charvel line could potentially produce, I don't know how they're going to meet customer demand without some degree of cusomization within the line itself.

If I'm the only guy who wants a rosewood, v-trem, star with an HSS configuration (I don't want that, by the way), are they going to turn down my order or charge me custom shop prices even though the price list says such a guitar would be available for $150 retail over the base price?

[Tekky]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

The Charvel line is run completely different. The premise of the return of the "San Dimas" Charvels is that you're more or less getting the custom guitars of old.

[RP]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

[ QUOTE ]
The Charvel line is run completely different. The premise of the return of the "San Dimas" Charvels is that you're more or less getting the custom guitars of old.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see that, but such a set-up would mean that it's at least possible to run Jackson the same way. That they don't is a choice they have made. Which is fine, but a lot of the defense of that choice seems to be that it's simply not possible (or at least not cost effective) to set up the line to work differently.

I don't buy that defense when the same company is doing it with their other line. It seems to me the reason is that they don't want to do things that way rather than they can't, or that it could only be done with custom shop prices across the board if they offered a few options here and there.

[Number Of The Priest]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="yellow">Actually, the number was much lower than 200.

It is actually closer to the low 100's from what I understand.

Here is the breakdown as I understand it:

50 Black (Standard Color)
56 Blue Ghost Flame
8 Slime Green
2 White
1 Orange Sherbert
? Custom Orders (Carlos Cavazo from Quiet Riot for example)

Brett and Doc know more about these than just about anybody I've talked with.

</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget the one-hum BGF Shannon [prototype?] that Brett bought from Moshwitz. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] That one was friggin' cool.

[Tekky]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Charvel line is run completely different. The premise of the return of the "San Dimas" Charvels is that you're more or less getting the custom guitars of old.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see that, but such a set-up would mean that it's at least possible to run Jackson the same way. That they don't is a choice they have made. Which is fine, but a lot of the defense of that choice seems to be that it's simply not possible (or at least not cost effective) to set up the line to work differently.

I don't buy that defense when the same company is doing it with their other line. It seems to me the reason is that they don't want to do things that way rather than they can't, or that it could only be done with custom shop prices across the board if they offered a few options here and there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I give up... I guess JCMI can't win can they? No matter how much they do someone will always want them to do more...

[jhale667]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

...I got to play Carlos' Shannon a LOT when I tech'ed for QR a couple summers ago...it is SWEEEEEEEEET. [img]/images/graemlins/notworthy.gif[/img]

[RP]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

[ QUOTE ]
I give up... I guess JCMI can't win can they? No matter how much they do someone will always want them to do more...

[/ QUOTE ]

No need to give up. I'm not arguing that choosing to do their Jackson line the way they do is a bad thing. If that's the way they believe they can set it up and provide the best product line at the best price, then I can't argue that they're wrong.

Sure, I'd like them to offer some other things at a lower price (because they do offer pretty much everything. It just requires going to the custom shop for a lot of it), but the fact that they don't is just one of those things. And I can live with that and don't begrudge them their ways.

But it doesn't make sense to me that that decision to do things one way can be defended by saying it's not possible or too complicated to do things another way when they're doing it another way with the new Charvel line. The fact that they can do it with the Charvel line completely deflates the argument that these things can't be done on the Jackson line.

The fact that it isn't is just a decision. And making another decision is all it would take to change it. They don't want to change it? No problem. It's their company. It's their choice.

Heck, for all I know, the limited Charvel options mights be a test run for offering limited options on the Jackson line. Who knows. But even if it isn't. I'm not upset at Jackson for choosing to run the Jackson line the way they do.

My whole beef has been with this idea that's been argued here that running the Jackson line a different way just couldn't be done. I think Jackson themselves is attempting to prove that idea wrong with the new Charvel line. And I wish them nothing but success with it (and the next guitar I order will be one of the new Charvels for the very reason that these limited options are offered. If Charvel/Jackson never changes from what they are right now. I'm perfectly cool with that. I don't have a problem with them. I have a problem with the arguments made in their defense because I don't think they hold water).

[Tekky]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

Well in all since we don't work for JCMI, we really don't know the real reasons. All we can do is speculate.

Maybe the way they're running the new Charvel line is purely experimental? Surely any modification to a linear manufacturing process such as this needs some testing.

Why did they do this only with Charvel? I'm thinking along the lines of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Jackson seems to be doing very well as is. The import Charvel line had a very poor showing. What could spice it up more than to a) bring production back to the USA and b) adjust the manufacturing process to be able to provide a custom guitar within a manufacturing line setting?

Is it working? Well, of that, I'm not sure, I'm still waiting for my Charvel. I was told that my guitar is the very first one ordered. (Maybe time is the reason why they don't do this with Jackson)