So if ALL I want different is a reverse head...

[snc2716]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head...

My friend got a price on a Custom Shop soloist the other
day and it ended up nearly 4000.00 retail.
He bought a guitar off the shelf for waaay less than half.

[Newc]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

We'll all be dead in 18 years [img]/images/graemlins/brow.gif[/img]

Just my rotten luck [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Newc

[rhoads56]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

[ QUOTE ]
So what would make it easier to implement and integrate such changes smoothly into a production line?

[/ QUOTE ]

Simple... jack the prices up until its worthwhile doing the custom work, and stuffing around the production run. Oh, thats whats already happening [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Trust me, people on production lines DONT think... they dont need to, nor do you want them to. Making the tasks easy to perform raises production. Then, turning around and adding options and "problems" only causes confusion and mistakes. Employees who prove themselves by not making mistakes, turn around and want more money. If they do make mistakes, they cost you a fortune.... either way your prices go up.

How many times have you contacted a company over the net, and recieved a "standard" email responce, when what you really needed was a "custom" answer to your question?

[Newc]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

I'm all for increased production, and there's nothing wrong with thinking on the job. Name one job where you can hire someone straight off the street or fresh outta high school where they know exactly what they're doing and can join a fast-paced environment and not make one mistake. Maybe in Fantasyland.

Yes it costs money to make money. Disprove my theory about a company being able to sustain a decrease in *projected* or *expected* profit. If you shell out $10 for materials to make something that you sell for $10, you have NOT lost money, you broke even. If you sell it for $9.99, you lost money. If you sell it for $10.01, you made money. Where is the misunderstanding here?

I'd certainly like to see an itemized bill for a Custom Shop Jackson - is it the parts or the labor that cost so much, and in either case, why?

Newc

[ranalli]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

[ QUOTE ]
As a luthier who does primarily custom made guitars, but also on a "production line" of sorts, i can tell you it is an absolute PITA to implement small changes to a batch of guitars.

You got a run of 25 guitars and one or two of those need one or two small changes?? If its 25 standard guitars, you just build them. All the workers know exactly what they are doing, and get the job done without even thinking.
Add a single hum option to one guitar, and then each person that touches that batch of 25, HAS to know which guitar is unique, and treat it so. It might add 20 seconds per guitar, per station... 25 guitars, by 15 workstations, is 123 minutes of extra paperwork just to see if the guitars are standard or not, let alone changing factory setups mid run to accomodate small changes.

Add a reverse headstock, and a single hum... What happens when the headstock guy does his job properly, but the humbucker routing guy doesnt read through the ENTIRE custom order sheet? You get a reverse headstock with two hums. Hmmm, throw it away, or keep building it?? Keep building it, sell it to a store that doesnt want it, and your down one guitar on the batch of standards.

By allowing small modifications or options into large production line batches, you are forcing EVERY employee to treat EVERY guitar like a custom shop item.

It really is a huge difference to the production line. I do it every day in my current business, and have also been in charge of a "custom shop" in a production line facility. I know from experience that small changes can create huge headaches, both in paperwork, invoicing, verifying client wants and needs, production line mistakes, stock control, quality control (checking it has been done), and even employee morale, etc etc etc etc.

[/ QUOTE ]


I actually agree with you for the most part...you definitely have a firm grasp on manufacturing and the concepts and I mean that. However, there's a difference between having employees thinking and following directions. There should be no thinking when it comes to following directions IMO or minimal at best. Yes you lose some "headroom" at the paperwork order level at the top but as a guitars down the line it's not too much more to think, "okay I need to make 20 regular DK1 necks and 15 reverses instead of 35 total".

Manufacturing is not about thinking...you're right...that's where you lose productivity and money but having them follow directions on the specs of guitars that they can make shouldn't be that hard.

A simplistic example is Taco Bell....they come out with a new food/burrito/taco all the time. The employees only learn how to put together the burrito which is using the same ingredients as everythign else just in a different way. No thinking, just following the recipe. Taco Bell can't afford to make only one or two types of tacos burritos...

[fuel0707]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

After reading all of these responses, I still wonder why Jackson couldn't do limited runs with certain popular requests like a reverse headstock. Maybe they could do a limited-run of 25-50 guitars with a reverse head. Then do 25-50 guitars with one hum. Perhaps even a third run of 25-50 guitars with one hum AND a reverse headstock. That way, Jackson could still have a standardized run of each guitar and there wouldn't be the "non-standard standard" production problem cited by rhoads56. And I would be surprised if FMIC/Jackson couldn't sell 75-150 of these specialized Jacksons through their dealer network. They could even spend just a little PR money to spread the word about the limited-edition models. I would bet there would be residual benefits for other Jackson models as a result.

Of course, it's interesting that Carvin can offer a ton of standardized options yet Jackson is unable to do even a simple reverse headstock for a production run. That's especially surprising in this age of CAD/CAM machines.

But all of this is just my opinion.

[xenophobe]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

[ QUOTE ]
If you shell out $10 for materials to make something that you sell for $10, you have NOT lost money, you broke even. If you sell it for $9.99, you lost money. If you sell it for $10.01, you made money. Where is the misunderstanding here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You've lost money. $10 worth of materials sold for $10.01? Is your labor free? The rent for the space you used to create them, the electricity bill? The stupid one inch advert in your local newspaper or telephone book? The water you use to flush the toilet for unloading your crap, the gas or shipping it took you to transport the materials to where you fabricate the final product?

So if you spend 3 hours just to get all the stuff, another $40 bucks in utilities/rent for the day, one hour checking and confirming the paperwork, and another hour or so making the final project... well hopefully your math skills will kick in. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Just as I've been saying this whole argument, you're not seeing the full picture, just the aspects that you'd like to see. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[xenophobe]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

[ QUOTE ]
After reading all of these responses, I still wonder why Jackson couldn't do limited runs with certain popular requests like a reverse headstock. Maybe they could do a limited-run of 25-50 guitars with a reverse head.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check www.eastonguitars.com and www.guitarexpress.com

both have done limited runs of special guitars... so has drumcityguitarland.com and onlinestagegear.com (when Matt was a Jackson dealer)...

It happens, but the dealer must initiate the order. The Road Hazzard, SL2GX, the DK2 one hum maple... blood splat warriors, archtop dinky... there have been a number of them in recent years.

[fuel0707]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

I do recall that the dealers can order special runs, like the GC Anniversary models that were discussed a few months ago. But I still wonder if Jackson wouldn't be just a bit on the savvy side to do a run themselves without the dealer special order. That way, no one dealer would be saddled with the cost and headache of special-run order by themselves. I still think 25-50 reverse headstock guitars would sell pretty quickly (if appropriately priced) throughout the dealer network.

[Tekky]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

[ QUOTE ]
After reading all of these responses, I still wonder why Jackson couldn't do limited runs with certain popular requests like a reverse headstock. Maybe they could do a limited-run of 25-50 guitars with a reverse head. Then do 25-50 guitars with one hum. Perhaps even a third run of 25-50 guitars with one hum AND a reverse headstock. That way, Jackson could still have a standardized run of each guitar and there wouldn't be the "non-standard standard" production problem cited by rhoads56. And I would be surprised if FMIC/Jackson couldn't sell 75-150 of these specialized Jacksons through their dealer network. They could even spend just a little PR money to spread the word about the limited-edition models. I would bet there would be residual benefits for other Jackson models as a result.

Of course, it's interesting that Carvin can offer a ton of standardized options yet Jackson is unable to do even a simple reverse headstock for a production run. That's especially surprising in this age of CAD/CAM machines.

But all of this is just my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, look at that import LE and the Bullseye Reissue as examples. Someone had to first go to the dealers and initiate the special editions. In the case with the import LE, there had to be a commitment from X amount of people (X because the number changed a couple of times) who were interested before it was committed to.

[fuel0707]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

[quote/]
Well, look at that import LE and the Bullseye Reissue as examples. Someone had to first go to the dealers and initiate the special editions. In the case with the import LE, there had to be a commitment from X amount of people (X because the number changed a couple of times) who were interested before it was committed to.

[/ QUOTE ]

So why doesn't Jackson make a good business decision and canvass the dealers or even this forum for a feel for the demand for a reverse-head guitar or a single-hum guitar built to USA production specs? Please understand that I'm not saying that I'd order one (I would if I had the cash), but there seems to be at least a small market for it. It seems to me that it might be a good business decision for Jackson/FMIC to find out what the customers want.

In a more cynical way of thinking, if Jackson won't do it for a reasonable price or at all, serious customers will find another source for a similar guitar, be it GMW, a custom builder or even used Jacksons already on the marketplace. Either way, Jackson/FMIC loses that income.

[xenophobe]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

There seems to be a small market for what?

What are the specs? What color paint? What color hardware? What pickups? What body wood?

You want Jackson just to make a guitar that you want, and force a couple dozen dealers just to buy one?

Hey John, let me force you to buy a guitar that I want ordered... Does that make sense? I sure hope it doesn't.

[rhoads56]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

[ QUOTE ]
I'm all for increased production, and there's nothing wrong with thinking on the job. Name one job where you can hire someone straight off the street or fresh outta high school where they know exactly what they're doing and can join a fast-paced environment and not make one mistake. Maybe in Fantasyland.

Yes it costs money to make money. Disprove my theory about a company being able to sustain a decrease in *projected* or *expected* profit. If you shell out $10 for materials to make something that you sell for $10, you have NOT lost money, you broke even. If you sell it for $9.99, you lost money. If you sell it for $10.01, you made money. Where is the misunderstanding here?

I'd certainly like to see an itemized bill for a Custom Shop Jackson - is it the parts or the labor that cost so much, and in either case, why?

Newc

[/ QUOTE ]

I can name that job where a newb can fit straight in... its ccalled a production line. There are two reasons for production lines, they are faster, and you need less skilled labour.
What im curious about, is why do you expect that a company will decide its time to make LESS money, to please its customers?

someone else mentioned Taco Bell. We dont have those here, so i assume its simular style to Subway. Thats not a productionline. A production line at subway would see ten employees all lined up to insert one ingrediant each. One for the bun, one for ham, sauce, cheese, salt, oh wait, the customer wanted a different sauce for his standard pizza sub, throw it away and start again....

[fuel0707]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

[ QUOTE ]
There seems to be a small market for what?

What are the specs? What color paint? What color hardware? What pickups? What body wood?

You want Jackson just to make a guitar that you want, and force a couple dozen dealers just to buy one?

Hey John, let me force you to buy a guitar that I want ordered... Does that make sense? I sure hope it doesn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa there, Xeno. I was simply suggesting that it might be worth Jackson's time to consider a small run, given that there might be a "small" market for it. Perhaps a little market research might yield a finding that there is just enough of a market to make financial sense for Jackson/FMIC to do a run of something like a reverse-head guitar. It was just a suggestion.

I did not say that Jackson should force-feed guitars to dealers or somehow force buyers to purchase them. (I'm not exactly certain how they could do that...) It was simply a thought that maybe something unique like a short run of relatively inexpensive reverse-head USA Jacksons might be snatched up by interested dealers. I never once suggested that anyone would be forced against their will to get one of those guitars.

But for the record, if I had a surplus of cash laying around (which I don't), I'd be interested in a reverse headstock USA Jackson at a decent price.

[Newc]

Re: So if ALL I want different is a reverse head..

Ok, let's change the theoretical $10 to cover the utilities and everything else required to make one guitar (it costs my emplyer somewhere around $1.79 per item to make one completed part).

And yes, I do work in a full-on production facility with a production line (person A does this, person B does that, person C does the next step, etc etc), and we get newbies in every day, and no, they are NOT able to keep up with the people who have been there even a week. They could keep up with each other if you put 5 people who started the same day on the same line together, but they will not meet production for the day. That's true everywhere.

And it's always time to make less money than expected to serve the market (customer). Companies are in the business of making money, not waiting tables, but there is a certain amount of serving that has to be done to keep business. Jackson is the only major guitar company to not have a wide range of options. Instead of waiting for the "trend" to be reverse-headed single-hum neckthrough Strats, put it on the list of available options or as a new model. Eliminate dead or dying models (like the Kelly) and replace it with something that has a wider appeal, or just to free up that time to spend on a limited number of options for the other models.

I don't agree with the idea that Jackson should do "one or two" of whatever optioned model to ship to all the dealers, because you will end up with a store in Idaho having 2 excess that won't sell and a store in Michigan having more buyers than products. It's better to have those options simply on a "per order" basis than to just assume they'd sell in Boise as well as they would in LA.

Newc