UPS Destroyed My Rhoads

[BayRocker]

Frustrated ?



BayRocker,

I've been trying to talk this point through as well, I don't hate UPS but I do have an "interest" in Fedex(the ground service is roughly 30% less expensive then UPS and also non-union). I forgot all about the shipping guitars and cases separately issue, but will try to look into that.

And yes when you talk about the sheer volume that's dealt with at either Fedex of Ups, there will be some "horror stories". I've seen barbells get broken, however with target damages being less then .7% of overall volume ~ a goal that is being satisfied in the Atlanta area, you can feel pretty secure in shipping with Fedex Ground!

Nah, not frustrated...more amazed. It amazes me how some folks insist that things are one way, and they really have no idea, but argue it based on how they think things should be as opposed to how they really are. I don't think these folks have any clue as to the massive amount of volume we are talking about.

You say non-union like it's a good thing. I would disagree, but that's another argument and not necessary here. Although...the teamsters are making inroads there you know.

Hey, honestly, I thank Fed Ex for lightening the load at UPS. It had gotten ridiculous. I welcome the relief! Unfortunately, your 30% lower rate is not enough to keep customers. We get a lot of defectors that return saying it's not worth it. Sorry.

In the twenty-one years I spent as a driver, I can count on one hand how many packages I delivered that were damaged. And yes I do know, because they send the drivers back out to pick up the damaged packages that are delivered. If you figure I delivered roughly 350-400 pieces daily over 21 years, with less then 10 damages...you do the math. No, this doesn't count damages that are caught before going out on road.

And, in the end, none of this excuses what happened to chef_jackson's guitar. I was just trying to shed a little light on some misconceptions.

[guitarsjb]

You guys may remember a few years ago I brought up the idea of starting a Musical Equipment-only shipping/courier service. This can be done Pony Express-style. It might take a day or two longer, but at least it could be done. I'm not talking a billion dollar loan for airplanes and ships and trucks and drivers. I'm talking about rented vans and lower-48-only.
Ship it in a paper sack and it gets there as if it was packed in a vault.

Was this the same idea we were talking about a couple of years ago?? Like if someone in southern TX sold something to someone in NJ? They would drive it to me (OK) I would drive it to someone in MO or IL and they would drive it to someone in OH maybe, and so on and so forth, til it reached it's destination?? I remember something about that.

[roodyrocker]

Been trying to tell you, UPS does it by hand as well. Not with forklifts. Every trailer is loaded by hand and packages are moved by conveyor.
There is not a single pallet jack, or forklift at the facility I work at...period. For some reason you guys keep insisting that forklifts are the norm when they are not.

Well then you guys must have some awful long, strong fingernails cause recently they've been punching holes through the box and road cases!
I was at the UPS facility where we attempted to pick these up at, we sometimes have them hold for pickup since its close by and no one is home. Anyway, I was told they do not use forklifts there and indeed I did not see one there and I was inside the facility. But they are punching some nasty holes through, with what I don't know. We just assumed it was a forklift (wrongfully so).

[Newc]

Was this the same idea we were talking about a couple of years ago?? Like if someone in southern TX sold something to someone in NJ? They would drive it to me (OK) I would drive it to someone in MO or IL and they would drive it to someone in OH maybe, and so on and so forth, til it reached it's destination?? I remember something about that.

Yeah, that was it.

I've gone to UPS 3 times in the last 2 weeks to ship guitars. There's always a trailer out in front of the place either picking up or dropping off, and the loading dock is right there facing the road. Every day I went, there was a pallet jack right there on the edge of the dock.


While I didn't hear a forklift, it's also not a hub. If what you say is true about UPS not using pallets in any trailer aside from bulk shipments, then UPS is losing money by hand-loading trailers. Pallets stack easier, load easier, and unload easier. If done correctly, you can sort packages a lot faster by palletizing, thus increasing the amount of time allotted to taking the extra 3-5 seconds to properly handle a package clearly marked "FRAGILE".

Treating every package the same way, regardless of markings, is all well and good if you're treating each one like a box of nitroglycerine, but since they're being treated like anvils, it's not a good thing.

Suppose I bring my window washing service to your house and clean your windows the same way I would clean a sidewalk - with a 350 psi pressure washer and a coarse abrasive? It's a surface to be cleaned, and I'm on a tight schedule.
When your windows break and you file the insurance, I'll be sure and notify you that your windows were improperly prepared by you for the rough service you should have expected from a company that simply has better things to do than take a few extra precautionary steps, simply because it eats into the billions I'm raking in every year.

Granted that glass items in loose, thin cardboard frames (I've seen those in other jobs, and yes, they're weak) should have padding to keep them from banging together. There's simply too much time involved to walk such a box slowly and carefully to a truck. However, nothing should be thrown through the air, dropped and kicked/shoved with the foot, or otherwise handled roughly. If it comes to that, then there need to be top-level pay cuts so that extra money can go to cover the extra handling cost.

Has anyone used the packing service of UPS or F'edEx for guitars? I see the sign up there when I go but have never tried it. I'm wondering if they follow their own "2 inches of padding all the way around" rule?

[jtr]

UPS destroyed a Fuchs head for me a few years ago I refuse to used them. They said it wasn't packed properly. I got nothing for it period. When I got it the cabinet & tubes were shattered all tranformer's were bent.Fed EX 2nd day air is expensive but thats all I'll used.

[BayRocker]

While I didn't hear a forklift, it's also not a hub. If what you say is true about UPS not using pallets in any trailer aside from bulk shipments, then UPS is losing money by hand-loading trailers. Pallets stack easier, load easier, and unload easier. If done correctly, you can sort packages a lot faster by palletizing, thus increasing the amount of time allotted to taking the extra 3-5 seconds to properly handle a package clearly marked "FRAGILE".

Do you actually believe a company that does 12 billion dollars in business each year, doesn't or hasn't investigated using forklifts and pallets over human labor. This is a company that counts the number of steps it takes you to get from the truck to the customers door, the number of seconds you have from turning off the ignition to being out of the truck with package in hand...etc...They live for this stuff. No way, no how. While you may think your method would be better, you'd be wrong. You would be amazed how fast a trailer is unloaded and sorted. UPS does not keep shipments together like a freight operation. It's more like sorting mail. Every package is going in a different direction. As far as pallets maximizing space in a trailer...no. Our trailers are full. I mean every square inch filled top to bottom. When they open those trailers...it looks like a wall of boxes floor to ceiling. Not a single square inch of space left.

Treating every package the same way, regardless of markings, is all well and good if you're treating each one like a box of nitroglycerine, but since they're being treated like anvils, it's not a good thing.

Suppose I bring my window washing service to your house and clean your windows the same way I would clean a sidewalk - with a 350 psi pressure washer and a coarse abrasive? It's a surface to be cleaned, and I'm on a tight schedule.
When your windows break and you file the insurance, I'll be sure and notify you that your windows were improperly prepared by you for the rough service you should have expected from a company that simply has better things to do than take a few extra precautionary steps, simply because it eats into the billions I'm raking in every year.

Granted that glass items in loose, thin cardboard frames (I've seen those in other jobs, and yes, they're weak) should have padding to keep them from banging together. There's simply too much time involved to walk such a box slowly and carefully to a truck. However, nothing should be thrown through the air, dropped and kicked/shoved with the foot, or otherwise handled roughly. If it comes to that, then there need to be top-level pay cuts so that extra money can go to cover the extra handling cost.

Again with the fragile sticker thing....seriously folks, I don't know why I can't get this point across...they are all handled the same! Fragile stickers or no fragile stickers. I never, ever implied this was a good practice...just the one that actually occurs in the real world, not the world as it should be or you'd like it to be. If you ask me do I treat a Plasma TV better than a Broom, I'd tell you YES, but in those trailers and on the sort slides and conveyors, it's the old west. Things happen. I'm in no way claiming that throwing, kicking or shoving packages is UPS policy...clearly it is NOT! As far as walking a package from here to there...there are retractable, motorized conveyors that shoot into those trailers. Trailer unloaders simply grab the box, and place it on the conveyor. No steps at all. No reason to kick or throw anything. The people loading the little brown trucks making your home deliveries do have to walk in and out of the individual trucks with the packages.

The pressure washer argument is apples and oranges. Cleaning sidewalks and cleaning windows are two different things. Shipping a guitar in a box, and shipping diapers in a box are the same thing, especially when you consider the people working the conveyor or unloading trailers have no idea what's inside those boxes. To them, a brown cardboard box is a brown cardboard box. I recognize a guitar on the line when I see one, but I play guitar, they don't. When I say we treat them the same, you are assuming that we treat em all bad like "anvils". This is not the case as 99%+ get there just fine, like the nitroglycerin you mention. As with anything, you only hear the horror stories. Nobody goes out of their way to post...UPS got my Rhoads here quick and in one piece. All of them guitars at Guitar Center and your local music shoppe got there somehow. It wasn't the Guitar Elves, and they don't magically appear there. I'm sure they see damages. There's damage built into the cost of running any business. I truly believe you folks would be shocked that there isn't more damage if you witnessed a sort at a UPS hub. I know I am, and I see it daily. It's a massive operation.

Has anyone used the packing service of UPS or F'edEx for guitars? I see the sign up there when I go but have never tried it. I'm wondering if they follow their own "2 inches of padding all the way around" rule?

Generally, UPS stores do observe the 2" packaging rule, but nobody forces them to. They are supposed to observe all UPS packaging rules. They are not run by UPS, but are independently owned and operated franchises. So they deal with damages the same as any other shipper. The UPS claims process is actually out of my area of knowledge. I would just say be persistent if they deny a claim. Like any insurance carrier, there is the small print including how to properly pack a box so it is covered. If you choose to ignore that fine print in your fire insurance and your house burns down, that fire insurance company actually goes out of their way to investigate and deny your claim. No different here, why would it be?

Well then you guys must have some awful long, strong fingernails cause recently they've been punching holes through the box and road cases!
I was at the UPS facility where we attempted to pick these up at, we sometimes have them hold for pickup since its close by and no one is home. Anyway, I was told they do not use forklifts there and indeed I did not see one there and I was inside the facility. But they are punching some nasty holes through, with what I don't know. We just assumed it was a forklift (wrongfully so).

Actually keeping nails at all can be a trick, they keep getting ripped and torn. Gotta keep em short or you loose em...ouch! I tried explaining this earlier but got stepped on over the "it must be a forklift" issue. UPS ships a lot of strange items. Propellers, car transmissions, rebar...etc. Rebar is commonly shipped many rods in a long box, simply taped at the ends. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that won't support the weight of a lot of rebar if stood on end. They pierce their box, and potentially damage any box around it. Impaling a guitar with rebar is not at all difficult. It seems folks think those cases are made of steel, but they're plastic. And one bad pack job can ruin multiple packages. I deal with HazMat leaks and spills, and it is not uncommon for 1 leaking box to ruin 20-30 other boxes. I actually had one small 8oz jar of honey, shipped from granny, with just a sheet of newspaper as packing, ruin or force the repackaging of 45 boxes.

Plasma, and LCD TV's are most common thing I see impaled as most shippers only protect the edges and corners leaving the screen virtually unprotected. These cost thousands too, and the screens are protected by 1/8" thick cardboard...that's it.

I would assume most guitar damages are a result of another improperly packed package skewering your properly packed box. This was my point. Knowing this...pack your guitars accordingly. I personally would never ship a guitar not in a road case, but I see it all the time. But guitar cases are not the be all, end all. That's all.

I only am engaged in this for the healthy debate of it. I am not laying blame with anyone, nor am I trying to sway you to use UPS. I am one of those union grunts ya'll are referring to though, and am in no position whatsoever to change UPS policy...please keep that in mind. Please don't take any of this the wrong way, I do really enjoy this forum and like the atmosphere.

[Jayster]

Do you actually believe a company that does 12 billion dollars in business each year, doesn't or hasn't investigated using forklifts and pallets over human labor.

Everything from ergonomics down to six sigma policy is used and implemented into the "best and speediest" ways to allow sortation with minimal damages.

. Nobody goes out of their way to post...UPS got my Rhoads here quick and in one piece.

Wonder why?

The fellow members who work at Guitar Center will say the same thing, between their stores they see 40,000 or however many customers a day and 12 were pissed off because the salesman couldn't answer their questions or they had to wait or whatever.

but in those trailers and on the sort slides and conveyors, it's the old west. Things happen. As far as walking a package from here to there...there are retractable, motorized conveyors that shoot into those trailers. Trailer unloaders simply grab the box, and place it on the conveyor. No steps at all.

Ok ~ Generally what happens is ;

A package handler will grab a package from the "wall" of packages in front of them if it's "sortable" it will be placed on the extendable conveyor in the trailer(this conveyor will keep package handler ergonomics at a best possible scenario(it goes up,down, in and out)).
If the package is unsortable it will be place on an I.C. belt(incompatable - this belt slowly winds past the load out side and is hand picked).

Now back to the sortable packages - from the unload conveyor it will go up to a collector bed and then get "scanned" individually @ over 300 fpm(feet per minute). From there it will go to another area of smaller destination levels where it will be "scanned" again and diverted to a final destination lane. The entire process from the unload belt to the final destination chute could take anywhere from 3-8 minutes and span the course of miles of conveyor belting and sortation system components.

Hey, honestly, I thank Fed Ex for lightening the load at UPS. It had gotten ridiculous. I welcome the relief! Unfortunately, your 30% lower rate is not enough to keep customers. We get a lot of defectors that return saying it's not worth it. Sorry.

No problem my friend, after all the thread is not called "Fedex destroyed my Rhoads" ~ Cheers

[PallarAndersVisa]

Ive worked with both UPS and FedEx. While at FedEx, I worked at the ground level, personally handling every kind of package that comes through. I can tell you, it makes no difference if its going through UPS of FedEx, it all depends on the type of individual that will be unloading and loading trucks, packing cans and stacking packages.

These companies hire people at the bottom level that flat out just need jobs. They dont care whether or not they are stacking boxes or walking around with a clip board. If someone is having a bad day (which is every day when theres 20+ people stacking boxes) they WILL throw your package. They will drop it if its too heavy, they will stuff it in a tight spot to make use of space, they won't give a fuck about it because they have to put their hands on thousands of boxes a day. If one of those breaks, "who cares" they say. "They shoulda packed it better" or "Not my fault, I dont wanna hurt myself"

It happens everywhere. I worked with good people at UPS, where all I did was box things up for people, but I can tell you there are plenty of times when I just didnt care all that much about making sure the things were packed safely. Throw it in the box, sprinkle some peanuts on top, tape it up, toss it along. You get your mits on a few thousand packages, you really dont give a shit about each and every one, and you honestly dont have the time to.

Thats life. UPS and FedEx and DHL are all out there with the goal to make money and to "try" and make sure every package is safe, but when theres 20+ people working at each station around the globe, you're gonna find a ton of those people really dont care about your stuff, and just want to get their jobs done so they can get home.

[Jayster]

UPS and FedEx and DHL are all out there with the goal to make money and to "try" and make sure every package is safe, but when theres 20+ people working at each station around the globe, you're gonna find a ton of those people really dont care about your stuff, and just want to get their jobs done so they can get home.

350+ @ my hub

And of course for the most part you're correct PAV ~ without the quality of human work, the quality of the system means nothing.

[toejam]

Nobody goes out of their way to post...UPS got my Rhoads here quick and in one piece.

I've never had a problem with shipping or receiving a guitar by UPS.

[PallarAndersVisa]

without the quality of human work, the quality of the system means nothing.

exactly

[roodyrocker]

Again with the fragile sticker thing....seriously folks, I don't know why I can't get this point across...they are all handled the same! Fragile stickers or no fragile stickers.


Generally, UPS stores do observe the 2" packaging rule, but nobody forces them to. They are supposed to observe all UPS packaging rules. They are not run by UPS, but are independently owned and operated franchises. So they deal with damages the same as any other shipper. The UPS claims process is actually out of my area of knowledge. I would just say be persistent if they deny a claim. Like any insurance carrier, there is the small print including how to properly pack a box so it is covered. If you choose to ignore that fine print in your fire insurance and your house burns down, that fire insurance company actually goes out of their way to investigate and deny your claim. No different here, why would it be?

Actually keeping nails at all can be a trick, they keep getting ripped and torn. Gotta keep em short or you loose em...ouch! I tried explaining this earlier but got stepped on over the "it must be a forklift" issue. UPS ships a lot of strange items. Propellers, car transmissions, rebar...etc. Rebar is commonly shipped many rods in a long box, simply taped at the ends. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that won't support the weight of a lot of rebar if stood on end. They pierce their box, and potentially damage any box around it. Impaling a guitar with rebar is not at all difficult. It seems folks think those cases are made of steel, but they're plastic. And one bad pack job can ruin multiple packages. I deal with HazMat leaks and spills, and it is not uncommon for 1 leaking box to ruin 20-30 other boxes. I actually had one small 8oz jar of honey, shipped from granny, with just a sheet of newspaper as packing, ruin or force the repackaging of 45 boxes.

I would assume most guitar damages are a result of another improperly packed package skewering your properly packed box. This was my point. Knowing this...pack your guitars accordingly. I personally would never ship a guitar not in a road case, but I see it all the time. But guitar cases are not the be all, end all. That's all.

I only am engaged in this for the healthy debate of it. I am not laying blame with anyone, nor am I trying to sway you to use UPS. I am one of those union grunts ya'll are referring to though, and am in no position whatsoever to change UPS policy...please keep that in mind. Please don't take any of this the wrong way, I do really enjoy this forum and like the atmosphere.

Hmm, several interesting points. Before going through them, I think we all can agree that we enjoy having you on this forum. As we debate this, I realize you are not personally UPS but simply work there. Nothing personal and btw I still use them myself and most of my packages do arrive o.k. Its just that some that are damaged look like it wasn't simply an honest mistake but rather that "I don't care attitude". Anyway, here we go:
First the fragile sticker thing. I suppose that since they pay no attention to that then they probably also pay no attention to the stickers on most guitar boxes from the manufacturer which say "This End Up". This in turn would explain people cracked headstocks since they ignored the Up sticker AND the fragile sticker. And frankly if thats the case igts UPS/Fedex's fault there was damage as thats plain negligence on their part.
Second, the analogy to the house fire insurance claim. And I know you stated claims aren't you're area but when an insurance company pulls out these tiny fine print clauses on you how do you feel whether its a guitar or a house? yup I thought so, you probably feel ripped off by them and angry and if UPS/Fedex want to play that game then you'll see people venting their frustration as you do here. Besides, the problem seems to be that they deny claims as a general rule and thats not right. If they know they are responsible for it they shouldn't make you go through hoops to cover it.
Next up, other people's packages skewering ours. This one is really interesting because what you're telling me is its not UPS' fault but another customer's fault. In which case why doesn't UPS tell customers such as the rebar people that they can't ship through UPS until they pack in proper containers? You can't be afraid to tell these customers to take a hike as its not right risking other people's stuff just because they want save a couple $ on their packaging costs. The other alternative is charging the damage to them instead of UPS. "Hello, Mr. Rebar manager this is UPS calling. We have a slight situation here. Remember when we told you to pack your spears in plastic not cardboard and you refused? well, one of your boxes just failed and skwered 5 plasma TV's, 3 guitars, etc... Will you be paying that by credit card or check today?"
Next point, about your suggestion to ship guitars in road cases. So if I sell a $300 guitar on E-Bay I should put in the ad shipping charges of $50 plus $500 for an Anvil or LM Engineering road case? Besides, in the last two weeks we've already seen TWO road cases packed in cardboard from the manufacturer arrive pierced regardless. So it appears even a road case is "inadequate packing" by UPS standards
We know you can't change UPS policy but perhaps you can better understand JCFers frustrations with UPS when they recieve their gear damaged. Hope you stick around and continue to enjoy the forum

[roodyrocker]

Ive worked with both UPS and FedEx. While at FedEx, I worked at the ground level, personally handling every kind of package that comes through. I can tell you, it makes no difference if its going through UPS of FedEx, it all depends on the type of individual that will be unloading and loading trucks, packing cans and stacking packages.

These companies hire people at the bottom level that flat out just need jobs. They dont care whether or not they are stacking boxes or walking around with a clip board. If someone is having a bad day (which is every day when theres 20+ people stacking boxes) they WILL throw your package. They will drop it if its too heavy, they will stuff it in a tight spot to make use of space, they won't give a fuck about it because they have to put their hands on thousands of boxes a day. If one of those breaks, "who cares" they say. "They shoulda packed it better" or "Not my fault, I dont wanna hurt myself"

It happens everywhere. I worked with good people at UPS, where all I did was box things up for people, but I can tell you there are plenty of times when I just didnt care all that much about making sure the things were packed safely. Throw it in the box, sprinkle some peanuts on top, tape it up, toss it along. You get your mits on a few thousand packages, you really dont give a shit about each and every one, and you honestly dont have the time to.

Thats life. UPS and FedEx and DHL are all out there with the goal to make money and to "try" and make sure every package is safe, but when theres 20+ people working at each station around the globe, you're gonna find a ton of those people really dont care about your stuff, and just want to get their jobs done so they can get home.

Its a good thing Jackson/Charvel doesn't think this way.

[RacerX]

I, too, enjoy having BayRocker here on the JCF - and not in a gay way

[ef_in_fla]

There's an obvious solution to all these shipping problems. Always pick up your guitar at the factory, as soon as it comes off the line.