UPS Destroyed My Rhoads

[Brooke]

i, too, enjoy having bayrocker here on the jcf - and not in a gay way

[BayRocker]

I ain't going nowhere...If I can tolerate working at UPS for 23 years, I can take anything an online forum can throw at me...except enjoying me in a "gay way." At that point, actually right before that point, I'm the F outta here...

I initially tried to respond to this thread with as little inside "how the operation works" as possible, because there's a whole lot more to it than I could possibly explain. Perhaps that just ain't gonna happen....

First the fragile sticker thing. I suppose that since they pay no attention to that then they probably also pay no attention to the stickers on most guitar boxes from the manufacturer which say "This End Up". This in turn would explain people cracked headstocks since they ignored the Up sticker AND the fragile sticker. And frankly if thats the case igts UPS/Fedex's fault there was damage as thats plain negligence on their part.

Orientation arrows, again like fragile stickers, are not always observed. UPS would tell you that an object should be packed securely on all sides regardless of orientation. I am not trying to tell you this as a "Hey, this is how it is, deal with it!" kind of thing. More like, "Hey fellow JCFer friends, this is how it is, and I don't want your stuff to get broken, so I'm letting you in on how it is." When a guitar is on a conveyor, it certainly is not facing arrows up...period. It is lying on its side. When packages jam up on the conveyor, the force of hundreds of other boxes builds up behind it, and tries to crush it, from all sides. Also, cardboard boxes are reused to death, commonly what the box says, and what are really inside are two very different things. The people working the sorts, do not know what's in those boxes.

Second, the analogy to the house fire insurance claim. And I know you stated claims aren't you're area but when an insurance company pulls out these tiny fine print clauses on you how do you feel whether its a guitar or a house? yup I thought so, you probably feel ripped off by them and angry and if UPS/Fedex want to play that game then you'll see people venting their frustration as you do here. Besides, the problem seems to be that they deny claims as a general rule and thats not right. If they know they are responsible for it they shouldn't make you go through hoops to cover it.

Whether it is fire insurance or package insurance, if you are pissed off about the fine print, it is irrelevant. It is there, and it does protect companies. UPS's insurance is a "For Profit" business, like any other insurance company. If there were no rules or fine print, people throw it in a box, no packing, UPS goes out of business tomorrow just from claims. Is not reading the fine print, or just the terms of a contract in general, the insurer's fault? No. If you and I are pissed, should we not be pissed at ourselves as well for not observing an insurance company's policies? A fire insurance company does not take you by the hand and inspect your house weekly for electrical wiring not up to code. It is our responsibility as homeowners to keep it up to code in order to keep our fire insurance valid. Claiming ignorance of the terms of a signed contract will not hold up in any court. Other than this argument, I really, really have no idea about how they determine whether or not to deny a claim...sorry, can't help you on that one.

In answer to your question would I be pissed, hell yes! But a good portion of that would be pissed at myself, since I voided my fire insurance, or I didn't read the fine print. Companies don't look after you, this is nothing new.

Next up, other people's packages skewering ours. This one is really interesting because what you're telling me is its not UPS' fault but another customer's fault. In which case why doesn't UPS tell customers such as the rebar people that they can't ship through UPS until they pack in proper containers? You can't be afraid to tell these customers to take a hike as its not right risking other people's stuff just because they want save a couple $ on their packaging costs. The other alternative is charging the damage to them instead of UPS. "Hello, Mr. Rebar manager this is UPS calling. We have a slight situation here. Remember when we told you to pack your spears in plastic not cardboard and you refused? well, one of your boxes just failed and skwered 5 plasma TV's, 3 guitars, etc... Will you be paying that by credit card or check today?"

Actually, this is close to how it does happen. If a determination can be made that box X destroyed box y, the claim is charged to box X. Making that determination can be very difficult as we are talking about 12 million packages bumping and grinding on each other every day. When a HazMat leaks in a trailer, has been determined to be packaged improperly, the damages to the package around it are definitely charged to that shipper. I know this, because I am the one who fills out that report. UPS does in fact suspend accounts if people continually ship improperly. Unfortunately, in regards to this discussion, the only way you find out about this is after the damage is done. So when a determination can't be made, UPS can and does fall back on the "your package is improperly packed" argument if you don't follow their packing rules.

So it appears even a road case is "inadequate packing" by UPS standards

No UPS doesn't consider a road case inadequate packing. It just considers it packing...period.

Here's a little insight...not my policy have you, UPS's...I didn't want to go this deep with all this, but ya'll seem somewhat interested so here goes....this was sort of brought up earlier in this thread....

A guitar case placed in a guitar box (cardboard box)...is considered the shipping container. UPS never ever, insures the shipping container. The road case in this case would be right up against the cardboard, not observing UPS's packaging rules as there is no 2" of protection protecting the case. Sorry, just how it is. In order for the case to be insured, it would...funny enough, have to be inside a case. I am intentionally trying to make this sound ludicrous, but it's sort of how it is.

Next point, about your suggestion to ship guitars in road cases. So if I sell a $300 guitar on E-Bay I should put in the ad shipping charges of $50 plus $500 for an Anvil or LM Engineering road case? Besides, in the last two weeks we've already seen TWO road cases packed in cardboard from the manufacturer arrive pierced regardless.

No, I'm not telling you you have to get a road case...but does UPS need to buy you a new guitar because you didn't sell it with a case, and ignored its packaging rules. If you are just shipping a road case, no guitar inside, that road case just in a cardboard box is by definition inadequately packed. Between that cardboard box, and the road case should be packing. These are UPS's published rules. What you are trying to say is a case in a box should be good enough so UPS should deal with it. Not gonna work that way, just isn't. I have a Gibson guitar box in my garage, guitar was shipped in road case. There is no way in hell you could protect that road case in that box, it barely fits in there. The guitar companies have determined that a road case is enough, not UPS. Are guitar companies qualified to make that determination, I would guess no. They are not in the shipping business. But they are in business, and have made a business decision to pack that way, for cost reasons. You as an individual however, cannot incur such losses due to damage in an eBay transaction. Therefore I as an eBay shipper would not pack my guitar the same way the guitar companies do. I don't work for Jackson, so I have no idea what happens claimwise when UPS busts up one of their guitars. You'd have to ask them if they lose or if UPS pays the claim.

We know you can't change UPS policy but perhaps you can better understand JCFers frustrations with UPS when they recieve their gear damaged.

I am not in any way saying UPS is saintly, because this certainly is not the case. I do understand those frustrations, and since I can't change UPS policy, the best I can do is help JCFers understand how UPS operates, so they can hopefully avoid some of those frustrations.

[spencer4hire]

BayRocker speaks the truth about UPS. You ask how I know. I have worked for UPS for 33 long assed years. Production is all UPS cares about. Packages per hour. Stops per hour. Over allowed hours. Under allowed hours. The unloaders unload 1350 pkgs an hour. Do you think they have time to read your fragile label? You have packages that weigh 1 lb loaded with pkgs that weigh 150 lbs. It is complete BS when you pay to insure a package and it gets damaged UPS denies the claim because they say it wasn't packaged properly.

[ulijdavid]

I ship about 10 guitars a year. I will not ship UPS ever. I shipped a RR Polka Dot V to a customer in Oregon. The guitar was shipped in a custom form fit case, polystyrene insulation foam 3/4" thick around the case (ends included) and inside a cardboard box. The guitar arrived in Oregon with the toggle switch having put a hole through the case and into the insulation foam. The custom case was made of 1/2 thick luan plywood. I am from Florida and have use 1/2" and 3/4" plywood during many a hurricane - that shit is tough!!!! I cannot even think of how much wieght or how high something had to be dropped to cause a toggle switch to go through the case (and no I don't place the toggle switch in the mid position during shipping). UPS claims department was contacted. I was told the product was inproperly packaged and the fact that the cardboard case had no apparent damage proved that. The guitar was insured for $2200.00. I was furious and told the claims person that by UPS logic, if I was hired to deliver a carton of eggs, dropped the carton of eggs, but did not damage the outside of the carton, then the damaged eggs are not my fault. With this being said, I am sure all of the delivery companies are the same. Customer service and integrity are a thing of the past, the all mighty dollar rules all. Shipping musical instruments is like playing Russian Roulette (with a bullet in every chamber).

[chef_jackson]

I guess I need to be worried about the replacement guitar that will ultimitely be shipped to the dealer and then to me. That is if Jackson sends it anytime soon.

[roodyrocker]

Just to keep it short I'll skip the quotes and answer a couple things briefly. If UPS doesn't read our large FRAGILE and UP stickers, then how can they expect us to know the fine print in their papers? :think: Its plain and simple, if you drop the package on its headstock end and it snaps and you disregarded the stickers that said FRAGILE and THIS END UP then its your fault it broke not my "inadequate packing".
Also, I think BayRocker and I are refering to two different things in regards to cases. When I say road case I'm not talking about the plastic SKB guitar cases the factories use. I'm refering to true road case that are plywood and ABS laminated with steel corners and recessed latches. Thats the road case type UPS skewered not once but twice. And what I'm saying is if that case in an outer box is considered "inadequately packed" by UPS then there is no so such as adequate packing of any kind! Its pure and simple, UPS tries to avoid paying for their screw up by blaming us. Anyway, I don't want to sound like I'm picking on UPS as Fedex is just as bad. I still use both of them, actually UPS more so just because their hub is close to me. And most of my stuff arrives fine. What I'm complaining about is what happens in those cases when they do actually destroy a package. And for the original poster of this thread, your JCF bros really do sympathize with you and hope you get a nice clean Rhoads in one pice soon

[Ben...]

Something like this Rudy?





I've heard those things weigh a ton.

[roodyrocker]

Something like this Rudy?





I've heard those things weigh a ton.

Yes, thats a road case or flight case. They are a bit heavy and expensive but they do protect the contents pretty well. My amps and cabs that I gig out with are in road cases but my guitars are in the factory cases. The amps go in the band trailer while the guitars go in the truck with me. Have yet to damage anything I play live In fact I'm looking for a road case for a Marshall 4x12 cab as I'd like to eventually gig out my Roads 1/2 stack I have a case for the head but not the cab yet and those white suckers aren't leaving the house without road cases for protection.

[chef_jackson]

Final Update

Talked to the dealer today, July is the best Jackson can do on a rebuild, that puts this guitar at 6 months until delivery. I still hold and will always hold UPS responsible for the amount of time I have had to wait for this instrument, I would have had it now...that's the breaks I guess. At least Im going to be getting some swag from Jackson and the dealer is going to throw in strings, a strap and some picks. Personally I think they should throw in a USA Kelly in matching paint scheme...nah just kidding...I know the guitar is worth the wait and will rock when I get it in my hands. Thanks for the responses and lively debate.

[Hellbat]

Well, if it makes you feel any better last June I was quoted 6 months for my RR1 build and I had it in my hands in September. It's always better to quote long and deliver early. Then you are the hero.

I learned that from Scotty on Star Trek.

[khabibissell]

I think it is funny that you guys are arguing with someone that actually works for UPS As if you know better than he does as to what goes on there.

I'm not denying the possibility that there are employees working for UPS that do a half assed job and aren't very concientious about their work, but you can find that in every industry unfortunately. The fact is UPS wouldn't stay in business if they weren't doing their job (shipping goods safely and on time) well.

I would agree with the theory that most damage is a result of improper packaging. A guitar or amp is a pretty fragile piece of gear and needs to be packed to withstand some abuse. Throwing a guitar in a case then into a box with no bubble wrap (which is how manufacturers seem to ship) is not sufficient.

To the OP, sorry to hear about your loss. Hopefully they get a new one out to you soon.

[Spivonious]

I never pack things myself if I'm shipping them UPS. The guy who owns the local UPS Store does a fantastic job and I'm always getting compliments on how well the package was shipped. And if something should happen, I'm pretty much guaranteed the insurace since they can't say I packed it badly. It's worth the extra $5-$10.

[OnlineStageGear]

In all my experience in shipping I have come to one conclusion. All the shipping companies are equal opportunity package smashers. Most manufacturers rarely package stuff well because stuff will get broke anyways and adding all that packing cost to maybe save a couple damaged shipments costs them more money in the long run. Then try and put in a damage claim over $100 and the shipping companies will fight you tooth and nail.

Shipping companies have all this shit down to a science anyways. How much money will we save by doing things this way verses how many more damage claims we will get? (The ones they pay anyways) I am sure they have contemplated shooting the packages out of cannons at your house from across the country or maybe just dropping them from planes.....

Matt

[surfdork]

Just for fun....and I know some have seen it before.

http://www.unitedpackagesmashers.com/

[Mazz]

Lol at the united package smashers!