Painting - experienced help please...

[warlok]

I'm stripping and putting a quilted maple top on my Model 6. In the end it will be natural (not stained) maple top and headstock and black sides and back. Want a very high gloss finish. NOT USING SPRAY CANS. I have hvlp guns and equipment and a stripped "practice" body to do first. Just want someone to back up what I'm thinking here and answer a few questions cause my brain is now completely fried reading about it. I've painted bikes, car parts, etc. but never wood or guitars so....
- I'm planning to use Lawrence Mcfadden (or Behlen) Nitro Lacquer. By the door of my garage with a bunch of box fans blowing out, respirator, paint suit, gloves, etc? Should be fine, right?
- It being neckthrough maple and poplar wings, will I need to use a grain filler? Vinyl sealer first?
- For the black, I'm planning to use the Nitro with the "Colortone liquid pigment for lacquer", right?
- Will 1 quart of nitro be enough?
- On the instructions for the HS decal (best-decals.com) it says it won't stick to porous woods. Going on the quilted maple, should I spray a light coat of nitro, let dry, then put the decal on, then rest of nitro?
- Anything else I'd need to know? Planning on about 2-3 days to paint, then at least a week, probably 2 before wet sanding/buffing.
Thanks in advance.

[sully]

Besides what you've listed, I'd plan on 3 days of paint; 3 coats, 3 times a day, for 3 days. I'd wait at least 4 weeks before you start the wet sanding/buffing process though; I think that 2 weeks is a little early, and you may wind up with more nitro sinking in than you want.

You won't need grainfiller for the body and neck, but I'd highly recommend using sand and sealer before you start your color coats, especially with the figured top; it's gonna suck up clear, so you're better off using sealer and not wasting your clear coat.

My questions for you are about the top you're going to put on. are you getting something thick, or going with a veneer? I'm assuming a veneer because of the forearm contour. I found a great tutorial about joining the top together on youtube; I'll try and find it and post it. It helped me out greatly. Be sure to run your top through a jointer (if you don't have one, cabinet shops can do this for you for about $5 or so) and practice getting the pieces together before the glue goes on, otherwise you may wind up with a thick seam running down the middle, which will look really bad.

Sully

[warlok]

Hey Sully. Thanks for the info. On the coats, you mean total 9 light-ish coats a day? I was figuring 3-5 coats a day thinking the "spraying nitro" was a bit thicker right out of the can, not thinned at all. Doing the color on the back and a light clear on the headstock before the decal on day 1. Then the clear on day 2 and 3 as needed. But that is definitely why I'm asking.... Oh, and does the sand and sealer tint the wood at all? Or atleast not more than the clear nitro will?

For the maple top, I ordered a quilted maple "acoustic back" that is .160" thick. I was originally going to do a bolt on guitar and have it planed down for the thickness of the new top. Well, that ain't gonna happen with the neckthru. Router, chisel, and sanding now on this one. I'm eliminating the forearm contour with a piece of my practice body (alder I think) dowel'd, glued, and shaped because I don't want to take a chance of cracking the piece trying to steam bend it for the contour. And i didn't like any veneers that I saw, nowhere near the depth of quilt I want. So the top will be completely flat. Which I like the look of anyway.

If you can find that video that'd be very helpful. I'm glad you mentioned it. I was planning on pre-setting the top halves on the body with tips of small nails tapped into the body. As in, cut about 1/8" off the tip of nails and tap them partially into body (4 per side). Then set the tops where I want them, then tap them onto the nails. Now they're set with guides to set them in place when I glue and clamp them. I hadn't thought alot about joining them. Do you use any kind of special joint or just straighten on a jointer and match up? I was thinking about hitting up a cabinet shop about seeing if they could tongue and groove it for me or what they thought would work.

Well, I can't sleep so I'm gonna watch your youtube videos, drink some beer, and smoke some cigarettes. I'm not an alcoholic, just a graveshifter!! lol

[warlok]

Sweet videos!! Very informative and you're a funny dude... Good Times!!

I also forgot to throw out there, glue? I was planning on elmers yellow wood glue buut seems I read alot about some "phenolic hide mixed with water and piss for a '59 les paul" or something like that. Ummmmm..... Elmers wood glue sound good?

[broken_fusion]

Not sure if you set on using nitro but take a look at KTM9 water based urethane.

http://www.graftedcoatings.com/KTM-9.html

I'm going to be using it a Holoflash refinish because the auto urethane I usually use will eat up the holoflash material.

[sully]

Hey Sully. Thanks for the info. On the coats, you mean total 9 light-ish coats a day? I was figuring 3-5 coats a day thinking the "spraying nitro" was a bit thicker right out of the can, not thinned at all. Doing the color on the back and a light clear on the headstock before the decal on day 1. Then the clear on day 2 and 3 as needed. But that is definitely why I'm asking.... Oh, and does the sand and sealer tint the wood at all? Or atleast not more than the clear nitro will?

3 coats per day, shot 3 hours apart, for 3 days. You may need to thin it if your part of the country is humid, otherwise it'll blush, and that blows. Sand and sealer doesn't tint the wood; think of it as high-solid clear coat. You sand away a lot of it. Day 1 for you (after you've got everything sanded up to 320 should be sealer coats. Do 2-3 in a day, let it sit overnight, then do 2-3 more coats of sealer.

Morning of day 2 for you is sanding the sealer with 400 grit. Then you could do your color (2-3 coats).

Day 3 is going to be color sanding and your first 3 coats of clear. Day 4 and 5 will be more clear.

Then let it sit a month before you do your sanding/buffing. You could do the logo after the sealer, but I'd bury the hell out of it in clear (like you normally would. Those decals aren't thin.

For the maple top, I ordered a quilted maple "acoustic back" that is .160" thick. I was originally going to do a bolt on guitar and have it planed down for the thickness of the new top. Well, that ain't gonna happen with the neckthru. Router, chisel, and sanding now on this one. I'm eliminating the forearm contour with a piece of my practice body (alder I think) dowel'd, glued, and shaped because I don't want to take a chance of cracking the piece trying to steam bend it for the contour. And i didn't like any veneers that I saw, nowhere near the depth of quilt I want. So the top will be completely flat. Which I like the look of anyway.

That's cool, but you shouldn't be surprised to eventually see the side seam where you filled in the forearm contour unless you put some kind of veneer around the sides. Poly glaze, or something of that nature may be helpful.

As far as a chisel goes, you can probably get by with just routing the top down, and using some kind of jig on top of the fretboard that you can use a pattern bit to rout the area around the neck without hitting the fretboard. In other words, using something that a bearing can ride on around the fretboard edge, if that makes sense.

If you can find that video that'd be very helpful. I'm glad you mentioned it. I was planning on pre-setting the top halves on the body with tips of small nails tapped into the body. As in, cut about 1/8" off the tip of nails and tap them partially into body (4 per side). Then set the tops where I want them, then tap them onto the nails. Now they're set with guides to set them in place when I glue and clamp them. I hadn't thought alot about joining them. Do you use any kind of special joint or just straighten on a jointer and match up? I was thinking about hitting up a cabinet shop about seeing if they could tongue and groove it for me or what they thought would work.

Egads man, that's WAY more involved than you ever need to get. Here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W3EW7gqGVM

Run the gluing faces through a jointer, and do what's in this video. I have to say that you MUST make sure that you have enough pressure or you're gonna have that seam. Trust me on this. Practice a bunch of times before you commit glue to the equation. Make sure you've got enough pressure from the outside in, and then downward. Glue it together first, and then glue it to the top. Titebond I or Elmer's wood glue is all you need. Oh, and get a lot of clamps.

There's two great places I'll recommend you for this kinda work:

http://reranch.com/101.htm

Reranch has a ton of fantastic info about nitro and working with it. Read this a lot.

http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Finishing/Colors,_stains/a-blueguitar.html

This tutorial will be great b/c it talks about finishing a figured top. These two places have been a massive help to me. Personally, I'm a poly guy, and if I were better set up to shoot auto urethanes, I'd go back to it in a second. It's way faster, to say the least.

Thanks for the kind words on the videos, I'm glad you enjoyed them, and let me know if I can help further.

Sully

[warlok]

No turning back now, got it mostly stripped. Strange that you can't see the seam where the neck/wings meet. But good too.

Aaaaaahhhh!! Good video. Gluing it together first..... novel idea. Thanks..

Logo after the sealer is a perfect idea. I didn't know they made sand and sealer sprayable. Saw it on reranch. I assume the vinyl sealer on stewmac is for the same purpose? Hope so. I want to get everything in 1 order.

I bought a rotozip tonight with a base that's like a 1/2 moon that should get me really close to the neck. Then I'll either make a jig or just chisel/sand the rest. Won't be much left to do. I'm not banging the hell out of it with a chesel, just shaving the leftovers out for a good straight base at the bottom of the fretboard.

I noticed while sanding the body that the forearm part is not a flat as I thought. Has some curve to it so I'll have to block sand that flat to make the piece to fill that. I was planning to use some kind of filler at the seam on the edges. wood putty or some auto spot glaze. You think it would show? What did you use to fill the extra hole in the LP you did? Can you see it now?

I read the reranch things and some on stewmac too. Very good info. I didn't see any of the stuff I need not in spray cans on reranch. Only in spray cans. Getting everything from 1 place, I'm going to get it all from stewmac. 2 qts nitro laquer, 1 qt vinyl sealer, and a bottle of black Colortone black liquid pigment. Anyone got an opinion if one is better than the other as far as Behlen or Lawrence Mcfadden other than Behlen being a bit cheaper?

Thanks again fellas.

[sully]

Gluing it together first..... novel idea. Thanks..

Hey, no prob!

Logo after the sealer is a perfect idea. I didn't know they made sand and sealer sprayable. Saw it on reranch. I assume the vinyl sealer on stewmac is for the same purpose? Hope so. I want to get everything in 1 order.

Yeah, you should be okay with that sealer. I haven't used it, so I can't say for certain.

I noticed while sanding the body that the forearm part is not a flat as I thought. Has some curve to it so I'll have to block sand that flat to make the piece to fill that. I was planning to use some kind of filler at the seam on the edges. wood putty or some auto spot glaze. You think it would show? What did you use to fill the extra hole in the LP you did? Can you see it now?

I used a marine-grade epoxy called Marine Tex. You can get it online, of if you're near any boating stores, they should carry it. The nice thing about it is that you can rout the stuff and it works really nicely. That said, yes, you can see it underneath the nitro. Evercoat's polyester glaze works really nice, too, and I've had it invisible under poly.

Anyone got an opinion if one is better than the other as far as Behlen or Lawrence Mcfadden other than Behlen being a bit cheaper?

Not sure on that one, as I haven't used them yet.

[warlok]

Shitty thing now is pacing myself. Now it's gonna be a few weeks before I get the top. Gonna finish stripping around the edges tomorrow. That's all that's left, then I'm stuck till I get the top. But I'm gonna order the paint supplies to practice with the other cheap body I have. Practice is good!!

BTW - Was looking at your videos again, Sully. Noticed the one about "where it all started".... We're the same age and I gotta ask.... Was that a Swatch?? lol

[sully]

no, my swatch died by then....it was a mickey mouse watch.

[tomanyjacksons]

I'm going to do the same thing with an old guitar of mine it's an old cheapy but it's been through alot with me. I'm wanting to use poof cans though what would be my best bet for this adventure? I plan on doing a multi-color with a clear over it all but I don't have the paitience to wait as long as the laquer requires, wish I did but I lose interest in a project if I'm not right on it. I have an old plywood body to practice on. Would stripping it ruin the wood as I don't want to spend a ton of time on that part of a practice run, or would I be better of just sanding that sucker down to where I have just a small amount of material still on it and start back from there?

[sully]

I'm going to do the same thing with an old guitar of mine it's an old cheapy but it's been through alot with me. I'm wanting to use poof cans though what would be my best bet for this adventure? I plan on doing a multi-color with a clear over it all but I don't have the paitience to wait as long as the laquer requires, wish I did but I lose interest in a project if I'm not right on it. I have an old plywood body to practice on. Would stripping it ruin the wood as I don't want to spend a ton of time on that part of a practice run, or would I be better of just sanding that sucker down to where I have just a small amount of material still on it and start back from there?

Honestly man, if you don't have the patience going in, don't even start until you do. The results you're going to get aren't going to be what you want unless you have a LOT of patience.

Sully

[tomanyjacksons]

Honestly man, if you don't have the patience going in, don't even start until you do. The results you're going to get aren't going to be what you want unless you have a LOT of patience.

Sully

I'm just not looking to let each dry for weeks at a time. I guess I'll just fgure it out myself. I've done body work and painting on cars for some time I hope similar results can be had with that. Thanks anyway.

[sully]

I'm just not looking to let each dry for weeks at a time. I guess I'll just fgure it out myself. I've done body work and painting on cars for some time I hope similar results can be had with that. Thanks anyway.

if you're going to use rattle can lacquer (which is fine), you're going to have to let the clear sit for at least 4 weeks before you wetsand/buff it, or you'll wind up with sunken clear.

sully

[tomanyjacksons]

I'm really wanting to try a base coat clear coat with like a poly clear over a dupont base flat and light and quick drying. I'm not to dead set on rattles but I don't have a friendly bodyshop anymore but I can borrow what I don't have from a few guys I used to work with. But alas I have a junk body for expieramental so I'll figure it out as I go, the worst that can happen is I learn something, and that's not all bad.