Neck through construction

[Pointy]

Ok this might be a really stupid question... the kind that come to you when looking at guitars too much instead of playing them

Neck through guitars with a trem cavity, AKA huge hole clean-through, doesn't that make them weaker than bolt-ons? It's more like hole-through-the-neck than neck-through-guitar.

Especially the way Jackson makes them, where the neck piece is only the top half of the guitar's body thickness, you get a neck pickup and that means that on the finished instrument neck wood ends along with the fretboard anyway, trem or no trem.

Am i missing something here?

[Newc]

How would the trem route make it weaker than a bolt-on? In what way? Tonally? Structurally?

And who said Jackson's neck-through tenon is only half as thick as the body? Last I saw it makes up the center of the body, and the body wings are separate pieces.

[Pointy]

How would the trem route make it weaker than a bolt-on? In what way? Tonally? Structurally?

I meant structurally, but i don't really know, it just feels that way! Certainly compared to a neck-through that is actually a single piece of wood going all the way through. It sort of seems to me like a bolt-on neck but glued instead of bolted on (not the same as a set-neck!).

And who said Jackson's neck-through tenon is only half as thick as the body? Last I saw it makes up the center of the body, and the body wings are separate pieces.

Well, i mean this:






There are the wings, the neck, and another piece below the neck (that actually looks thicker in this one). So with the humbucker hole, there is only a rather small piece of wood connecting the neck to the body.

Now, USA Jacksons don't exactly have a bad reputation and i am pretty sure their necks don't just snap off, so if i am not getting something here, by all means educate me!


Edit: embedded the images instead of links

[VitaminG]

How would the trem route make it weaker than a bolt-on? In what way? Tonally? Structurally?

And who said Jackson's neck-through tenon is only half as thick as the body? Last I saw it makes up the center of the body, and the body wings are separate pieces.

there have been a few pics illustrating that fact. The body consists of the neckthrough piece, with another piece of maple attached behind it and the wings attached to that. I don't know if that is the case with all neckthru Jacksons but it has been with at least some of them.

[dg]

By the point where the trem cavity goes all the way through, the neck section is pretty deep into the body. As for the thickness thing, I may be wrong, but I thought they just did a veneer on the back of the trans finished ones for cosmetics, and there's plenty of thickness in the neck for structural strength.

-edit- Okay, I see what you're saying. I posted before I read Gary's & before you added the pic. In the pic you posted, the neck section of the guitar is made up of the two pieces that are glued together. It's not a 1-piece neck, but it's still the neck running all the way through for the full thickness of the body. I guess it's semantics, and you could argue the other way. It's plenty strong, though. If you tried to peel or split that neck along that glue joint, the wood layers would splinter & split more than the joint would.

[Rich#6]

I don't know if that is the case with all neckthru Jacksons but it has been with at least some of them.

Where those the mahogany bodied ones?

[Nightbat]

Keep in mind that a bolt on only holds on 4 little points
whereas neckthru's are fastened along the entire area with glue, even set necks have more contact area than bolt ons
and it's not crazyglue they're using to get the pieces together

Also, the tremcavity is the least of your worries, since the neck pickup route is a weaker point being closer to the point where the pulling forces converge

[steve304]

I am confused. I don't see how a neckthrough, no matter how thin or how many holes are in the body section, could ever be weaker than a bolt. I do know from owning many of both bolts and neckthroughs, that with a bolt neck the guitar is essentially pulling itself apart over time. The tension of the strings (something like 950lbs IIRC) causes the neck joint to loosen over time and screws with action, and intonation ect.. I have never had the same issue with any of my neckthroughs, and while I have seen many a bolt break at the neck joint (or headstock) from being tipped over on a stand or in a case, I have never managed to snap any of my neckthroughs. Just my experience though, I am by no means an expert in guitar construction.

[Pointy]

Ok, i realise now that the comparison with bolt-ons doesn't make much sense. What are the benefits of neck through construction then as seen in the photos (it's a KE2) if you are going to cut it through for the neck pickup?

Or if you want, forget the pickup hole, why does Jackson make neck-throughs that way, if anyone knows?

[dg]

Think of it in a similar way to the scarf joint they use on tilt-back headstocks. Less wood has to be cut away to shape the neck down from the thick body section to the thinner part of the neck, plus there's the cosmetic benefit that they can glue a piece of alder (or whatever the body wood is) to the maple so there's a less obvious transition from the wings to the neck on a trans finish.


-edit- Did a quick, crappy drawing (no headstocks). I think it's a combo of cosmetics & wood savings.




Middle one shows wood that would be wasted in shaping down from body to neck thickness. Bottom shows how you might do 2 at a time to reduce waste, but it might be a more complicated & time-consuming cut, plus you wouldn't get the cosmetics of being able to use 2 different woods.

[Chad]

I too was surprised when I found that Jackson makes neck-through guitars like that. It appears that the veneered portion on the bottom is the same wood as the type of wood used for the wings. It almost makes the guitars seem more like set-through construction. I never realized it was this way until I got a translucent finish neck-through Jackson.

I really do wonder why they do this? I find it hard to believe it's for cosmetic reasons because it's on the BACK of the guitar. Not saying cosmetics don't matter on the back of a guitar....but enough to completely change the construction technique? Also, I find it visually less pleasing because it just looks weird especially on the bottom of the guitar near the strap button (like depicted on the second Kelly photo above).

Are there any other manufacturers besides Jackson using veneered neck-through construction?

Also, do they do this only with translucent finishes or all neck-throughs? I'm wondering if my snow white RR-1 is built this way.

[Newc]

A long piece of wood is not as strong as laminated pieces. With a Jackson neckthrough, the neck is made up of at least 3 pieces - the headstock (scarf jointed to reduce the risk of warpage/breakage) is glued to the main portion of the neck (fretboard/playing area, which is quartersawn since that's a stronger cut) and that is glued to the body tenon, which, as you can see in that Kelly pic, is flatsawn. This joint again increases stability just like at the headstock.
The top of the neck seen at the end of the body is normal. It's laminated onto the part of the tenon that the body wings are attached to.

If you look at Carvin's neckthrough part:

http://www.carvinguitars.com/catalog/necks/index.php?model=nt6

You can see their method is different - the entire head, neck, and body area are all one piece.

And AFAIK Jackson doesn't rely strictly on glue. I've seen underneath a busted fretboard and there were small metal pins as well as glue holding it on.
Not sure if they use dowels/pins for the body/neck joints, but I'd imagine that's a stronger hold than simply using glue.

[Chad]

I am confused. I don't see how a neckthrough, no matter how thin or how many holes are in the body section, could ever be weaker than a bolt. I do know from owning many of both bolts and neckthroughs, that with a bolt neck the guitar is essentially pulling itself apart over time. The tension of the strings (something like 950lbs IIRC) causes the neck joint to loosen over time and screws with action, and intonation ect.. I have never had the same issue with any of my neckthroughs, and while I have seen many a bolt break at the neck joint (or headstock) from being tipped over on a stand or in a case, I have never managed to snap any of my neckthroughs. Just my experience though, I am by no means an expert in guitar construction.

950 pounds of tension? Where did you read that? I'd venture to guess that 950 pounds of tension would cause most all guitars to explode regardless of their construction style. As a reference, the combined tension of a set of 10-46 D'Addario EXLs is 103.6 pounds in standard tuning on a 25.5" scale guitar.

Bolt-on guitars are pulling themselves apart over time? How do you explain original Strats still functioning perfectly?

As far as strength, I'd say that both are strong enough as to not be a concern provided they aren't abused. A guitar is far more likely to break at the headstock....especially if tilt-back style.

[Newc]

Bolt-on bolts go through the entire heel, almost to the fretboard. Given that most boards are 1/4" thick, and most heels are 3/4" thick, and a scalloped heel is 3/4" thick, the bolts are more than adequate to hold a neck in place against the tension of the strings.

[Pointy]

A long piece of wood is not as strong as laminated pieces. With a Jackson neckthrough, the neck is made up of at least 3 pieces - the headstock (scarf jointed to reduce the risk of warpage/breakage) is glued to the main portion of the neck (fretboard/playing area, which is quartersawn since that's a stronger cut) and that is glued to the body tenon, which, as you can see in that Kelly pic, is flatsawn. This joint again increases stability just like at the headstock.
The top of the neck seen at the end of the body is normal. It's laminated onto the part of the tenon that the body wings are attached to.

If you look at Carvin's neckthrough part:

http://www.carvinguitars.com/catalog/necks/index.php?model=nt6

You can see their method is different - the entire head, neck, and body area are all one piece.

And AFAIK Jackson doesn't rely strictly on glue. I've seen underneath a busted fretboard and there were small metal pins as well as glue holding it on.
Not sure if they use dowels/pins for the body/neck joints, but I'd imagine that's a stronger hold than simply using glue.

Very interesting, thanks.