Truss rod rattle - thru neck

[ginsambo]

Got my thru neck BC Rich back from fret leveling. Not overly impressed, but nice polish job. I think I am not overly impressed because of my ignorance of what to expect.

Still get fret buzz on all strings, but only when I play the way I do, if you are delicate it is almost fine, think the problem area is where the neck goes through the body 18/19-24th fret as the neck/frets seem slightly raised here. This is usually the problem area on classicals also, as the rest of the neck bows independantly of that area.

The action is 3mm (Above top of fret) at 12th fret low E. Its seems this is the lowest I can go. Its a short Gibson scale length so string tension is looser anyway and has .009 strings.

A week later, I looked at the truss rod, as he'd set the neck dead straight, I wanted to try a quarter turn of relief to see if that improved it. Trussrod was loose and rattling, so I guess no neck relief then eh. Surely the tension of the strings should pull the neck into a bow? this worries me really.

Is this normal? Should I just turn it clockwise until it bites/resists and leave it? - If you turn it 1/2 turn counter clockwise it feels like its biting again, but I guess that is the nut jamming? Bit confused really but don't panic, I'm used to adjusting diesel injection pumps, so I'm pretty careful and methodical with my rotation positioning and just put it back to how it was.

I play the thing hard - so I think I am expecting too much with .009 strings. Would .10 strings make a lot of difference creating less buzz? Have I got a tight neck/potential backbow on my hands (Its is quite chunky). And how do I get shot of the truss rod rattle?

You can see my problem I'm shit scared of a potential bow backed thru neck. Should I fit heavier strings ASAP?

Edit: Not a Jackson/Charvel sorry. Help!

Edit: just remembered - one of the reasons I took it in was also to have a pro set up - I'd adjusted the truss rod before taking it in (Loosened it by 5/8 turn or so for neck relief) and wanted to set up properly by an experienced hand. However I'II add that when I did loosen it before, I measured for neck relief and it was obvious it was getting greater the more I loosened it under string tension. So the neck is ok. (I know you shouldn't tighten rod under string tension but I figure lossening it is ok)

Now nothing happens...at all....when I loosen it. Has he stripped the rod by going overboard to straighten the neck.....?

Getting paranoid now. Getting absolutely no relief loosening trussrod, When I took the guitar into the guy he said, oh yeah we can get the action much lower than that. My first impression when I got the guitar back was disapointment that the fret buzz was exactly the same as it was before and he said that was normal. I thought 3mm+ action was still relatively high? Weather is rain everyday (Its the UK), no central heating...how could a neck become that tight within the space of a few weeks?

[Newc]

Interesting. The trussrod may have come unseated from its mooring at the end of the channel, or it may be so loose that it's just the nut on the end rattling.

Low action does not usually go well with an aggressive picking style, as it results in tons of buzz. It's more for the light-fingered speedy fluid stuff like Satch and Vai. EVH gets along fine with higher action, a strong pick attack, and speedy licks, but when that's all you've got, you get good at it.

Thicker strings would pull against the neck more than the 9s will, but maybe not enough to counter the wood's desire to bend backwards.
If it's a double-acting trussrod, it should have the ability to bend forward rather than just back.

[MakeAJazzNoiseHere]

9's on a 24.75" scale is pretty light. 3 mm action is high as hell, though you don't say how you measured - you should always capo at the 1st fret to measure action, otherwise the nut comes into play, but either way that is high as hell.

I use 9's on a 25.5" and 10's on 24.75" scale and set my action to around 1.2 mm on the high E at the 15th fret and 1.4 mm on the low E, with a capo on the 1st fret. This gives me a tolerable amount of fret buzz and I can bend a step and a half without anything choking out. That's on a guitar with a 12" radius or a 10 - 16 or a 12 - 16" radius, I might expect a LITTLE higher on a 9.5" radius but much more than that and something is just not right.

Don't expect low action without fret buzz if you play with a decent amount of pick attack on 9's on a short scale guitar. But it kind of sounds to me like this guy did a shit job of setting up your guitar. :dunno:

[Newc]

Well, setups are pretty much up to the tech's preference unless you hand him one that's already set up and say "here, match this". If you just take it to a guy and give general terms like "low action", and he's a soft-touch sweeper and you're a hamfist, then yeah, it's gonna buzz. If you're a light-fingered sweeper and he's a hamfist, then you're going to have hell trying to sweep lightly on it, but he'll run over it like a possum on the freeway.

I never measure my string height. I set the neck flat then tweak it so it's ever-so-slightly forward, then crank the bridge down to where full-step bends at the 15th on the high E grind out, then slowly raise it until it stops grinding out. I may have some plinking here and there, but for the most part it's gravy.
I set the bass side even with the treble, unless the 12th fret on the low E buzzes too much, then I raise it until it's a tolerable trade between the tone I want and the noise/warbling I can tolerate.

It works for me and how I play, and I've gotten action so low that you could fret with a feather on some guitars (the Archtop Collen Pro I shoulda fucking kept, for one!!! )

[MakeAJazzNoiseHere]

That's how I used to do it (go as low as possible, then raise it slightly) and I used to try and get just "a little" relief.

These days I just measure mine so they're all the same. It only takes a few simple homemade tools to measure everything (a .005 piece of metal, and some various thicknesses of guitar picks, and a capo made from a nylon cord tie-down, some masking tape, and a couple of toothpicks) and a few minutes to adjust it to the specifications I want.

If it can't be setup to my specifications, I fix it... To fix it, it's just a few hundred dollars worth of tools, and possibly ruining the guitar.

But really, 3 mm action is "low"? That tech needs a reality check if that is "low" to him. :think:

[ginsambo]

Its not a really expensive guitar, its a Czech made, Koa exotic classic Mockingbird. To be honest the shorter scale length sounds muddier than the Jacksons anyway. But its the nearest I've got to a Les Paul (I'd never buy one cause I'd ruin it!) Got it shipped from Miami direct and managed to avoid UK taxes - You could add £250 to the US price in the UK, even though the damn thing is made in Europe!


We are both hamfisted! Although I'd prefer to call it aggressive personally. He has done a good job of dressing the frets, as there was some serious wear around the A Minor, D and E minor areas, really everywhere up to fret 17 (I play with a wide vibrato and lots of bends and fairly aggressive blues and stuff). I don't really play that often beyond the 17th fret on it so 17-24 were like new. I'm amazed how much I'd worn away the frets in the space of a year...

Its all started when I changed strings. Old ones must have been 10's but on a short scale length, you just don't notice the extra tension with builders hands. At first I thought it was a batch of cheap strings. Then I adjusted the truss rod a quarter anti-clockwise to try some relief and the bowing with the looser truss rod was obvious, but the truss was still tight. With 1st and 24th depressed/capo'd the 8th was about 1mm (0.004"), which is a lot of relief I guess. But the new fret buzz was bugging me and since I had a classical I took both in.

He dressed the frets, I guess he set the action to 2mm, Not 3mm (Just measured it) and it did buzz but only when played relatively aggressively (Softly for me) - this is what I mean about my ignorance. He dressed the frets I had worn and had to knock some off the 17-24 frets to compensate, as he said that was mostly the problem area. I also had an annoying harmonic/buzz coming from the headstock I told him about but he didn't fix that.

What I'm really worried about is with the truss loose and rattling the neck just won't bow under 009's, but it did bow on 009's before I took it in to the luthier. Turning anticlockwise it starts to bite, but I reckon that is just the end of the thread on the rod.

The guy was older and many people have their central heating belting in the summer as it mostly rains and rarely gets above 60F during the day and 50F at night.

Could his central heating of done something to the guitar in the space of two weeks?

I can't understand how the wood would have changed its charactor so quickly, unless the nut is threaded and spinning on the same spot on the rod? But then you tighten it and it does bite so I don't think it can be that...?

He said he never sights the neck on guitars, but sighting it now, it looks like the High E side is slightly back bowed around the 8th fret and the Low E side is in a slight, consistant bow of relief. This is with truss rod completely slack. Sighted it before I took it in and it was all in relief with the truss rod TIGHT! Is this the neck compensating for lighter strings?

This is getting a bit long winded, sorry, when you bow the neck forwards with one hand the heel knocks like the rod is very loose, even when you tighten it a quarter or slightly more after its bitten.

Think I need 11's or something....?

Wonder if I take neck bucker out I might find the end of a double acting trussrod...but doubt it.

Sighting my Charvel 1A - neck relief is exactly how I set up the BC Rich was BEFORE I took it into the luthier. Sighting my SL3, its dead straight.

[MakeAJazzNoiseHere]

Hell yes, two weeks? A couple of days is enough for a humidity change to make a difference. Especially on a lower-price guitar where the wood probably was not dried well.

But typically a guitar will back-bow when there's a lot more humidity - in the summer here it's about 65% even with the air conditioning on, and I have to loosen my truss rods a good bit to get the neck not back-bowed relative to how they are set for the winter, when I struggle with 2 humidifiers filled daily to keep the humidity to 45%. Now, not every guitar will react the same way but... Mine all do. They need less truss rod the more humidity.

First, other than the rattling, the truss rod being loose won't hurt anything. You may have a 2-way truss rod. Does it stop positively when you back it off, or does it just get a bit of resistance to it? When it has some resistance, does it still rattle? If so it's probably hitting the peened end of the truss rod thread like you suspect.

Second, I think your inch to metric math is off a little but even half a mm of relief should be enough for a workable guitar, I use much less. But that is a preference thing. And 2 mm action is still relatively high, but for someone who picks hard, it's not ridiculous or anything, so I think I have a good idea of what your setup is like.

Third, I would probably suggest you are better off with 10's on that guitar anyway, but if you are set on 9's for your wide vibrato then I would tighten the truss rod just enough to stop the rattle, tune it up, and play it. It might get some relief if it's under tension for a bit, and you don't need much at all.

My old Gibson wouldn't bow with 9's on it either. Truss rod just tight enough so it didn't rattle and it was dead flat... That's not a lot of tension for a short-scale neck.

[ginsambo]

One way truss rod, it ends about 4 frets shy of the body I reckon by the knocking. Took out neck humbucker and nothing, also turning rod antio clockwise encounters gradual resistance, like you are reaching the end of the threaded rod. It does seems a bit flatter now.

I think you're right has to be 10's as short scale and 009's gives no tension. But you can get some great pre note fat, crunchy mutes with loose strings and a short scale that you just cannot with a 25.5" scale.

Humidity - Shit maybe I am guilty then, don't have central heating on, typically 80%+ humidity, cold damp and raining everyday with windows open. Typically 13-21 C temp range everyday inside during the summer and pretty damp. I'm in a flat with a pitched roof, when the sun does come out, you can hear the old 1930's deco furniture crack and bang, and again it makes a crack at night when it cools down again. Probably not the best guitar environment but this is England.

Since the government sold off all the utilities companies to private foreign investors years ago, and they have since been making record profits, year on year and putting up gas prices 20-25% year on year, and considering it takes ages to heat a damp place, I refuse to sit on the heating untill it gets down to 7C. or it looks like the pipes are gonna burst at -15C. It would frankly be cheaper to buy a set of NEW guitars every year than pay out for the gas.

Thanks for the advice!

[Newc]

Well, the rod would not extend beyond the neck/fretboard, so you wouldn't see it in the neck pickup cavity. If you do see it in there on any guitar, I'd be highly suspicious of it

And the nut of a two-way rod will behave just like the nut of a one-way rod - you go counter-clockwise all the way, but the big difference is the nut can come off a one-way rod, whereas with a 2-way, the rod bends forward and the nut stays on.

[MakeAJazzNoiseHere]

I wonder if it isn't a 2-way rod and it was adding a little relief before, and when he unscrewed it some more, it added more relief? Then the tech got a hold of it and screwed it back the other way... :think:

A two-way rod adding relief feels about the same as a one-way rod being unscrewed if it's sort of tight.

[ginsambo]

I will be doing some serious BC Rich Research first, before winding it back anti clockwise....

[sully]

One thing that jumps out at me is the truss rod rattle. That's potentially a sign of a slot cut a little too big (wide or deep) for the truss rod. One thing that's recommended when installing a truss rod is to put a little dab of silicone caulk where the ends of the rod go; it can help prevent things like rattle. You may notice that the rattle goes away when you tighten the rod slightly.

The other bit about buzzing at frets 18-24 sounds like that there may not be enough fall away leveled into the frets. Around fret 15, you want the fret height to gradually decrease as you go up the neck.

Sully