Wait, you can't do double bends on floyd's?!

[3reach]

I am deciding between RR1T or RR1.

I really would like a floyd but there are two things that make me want to go hardtail:

1) Floyd-equipped guitars tend to sound thinner than hardtail versions of the same guitar model.


2) Just read this....you can't do double string bends or it will go out of tune. Is this true? That is unacceptable for me. I do a lot of that. I could not adjust to dropping that technique just because I have a floyd.

[DalyTek]

Get the Floyd if you'd like one.
1) Upgrade the block
2) Install a Tremol-No

[ginsambo]

If you attack it like it just raped your family, then double locking floyds don't work I reckon, at least for me.

The Floyd on my SL3 is set up to trill, which it does nicely with a one touch and release. But its always temporarily out of tune, just playing with strong vibrato and bends. Not much you can do on a double locking guitar, other than modify your technique, or add extra heavy strings and high tension springs, or a tremolo block, making it single locking with heavy springs or lock it down completely, which kind of defeats the point of it.

I don't think, especially with the block, a well set up floating floyd will affect the sustain any really.

I don't overly love the way double locking trems sit lower in the body as it strains my pick hand and they do go out of tune if you rest your hand on the bridge to play. Ultimately they require a lot of sensitivity to play as they play up with a more rugged and aggressive technique. They are a whole different animal of instrument in my book.

Single locking trems on the other hand are rarely set up to slightly float and thus trill, you can add heavy springs to these with a tremolo stop in the cavity, if you are using light strings, so it doesn't pull back into the body and get the best of both worlds.

Ultimately, for me the attraction of the RR's is the TOM style bridge. Aesthetically 22 frets helps also. You know there are a few RR5's about with neck binding now? Whether they are Japan internal market models or whatever I don't know. But they look (And play I would imagine) very nice.

I wish Jackson would do a thru neck, 22 fret, TOM Bridge RR without a stratchplate as a production model, as with the RR24. The only option for this combination is a custom order as far as I am aware. Of course there is the Kevin Bond model, but that has the stupid Stan Pentagon inlays....

Ideally, you want both! But if it were me I'd get more satisfaction playing a guitar rock icon like that by beating it into submission with strong vibrato old school rock and performing neck bends where they are needed.

You seem to have the money for an RR1, so do you have other floyded guitars?
If I had the money off the bat for an RR1, then I'd make sure I had the money for a RR1T as well, or at least an RR24.

For me, a Charvel Star with a double locking Floyd, or a RR with a floyd is blasphemy.

I mean, these are old school rock guitars, made to be played more aggressively. Once you put a double locking floyd on them, to me they loose their appeal and are just another shaped rock fizz stick, hard to dintinguish from the thousands of others out there. It is almost as if the sensitive nature in which they must be played with a double locking floyd is at odds with the aggressive body styling. Like the worst of the wannabe copycat '80's hairspray bands to a teenager, all lyrics and posing with no real new music, substance or lifestyle. Or a Mustang with a '70's naturally aspirated Pinto under the hood....

You can't do unison bends on a double locking floyd guitar unless you lock it..

The rant and the philosophy probably doesn't help, but its your choice at the end of the day! Just don't Blasphem!

[Snoogans]

For me, a Charvel Star with a double locking Floyd, or a RR with a floyd is blasphemy.

I mean, these are old school rock guitars, made to be played more aggressively. Once you put a double locking floyd on them, to me they loose their appeal and are just another shaped rock fizz stick, hard to distinguish from the thousands of others out there. It is almost as if the sensitive nature it which they must be played with a double locking floyd is at odds with the aggressive body styling

Well said Sir! My sentiments exactly. However, I feel we may be in a small minority here...

[joshulator]

Are we talking about bending two strings at the same time? Or bending one while holding a note on another? The latter can certainly be done but will require an adjustment to your technique.

[VitaminG]

If you attack it like it just raped your family, then double locking floyds don't work I reckon, at least for me.

huh?

its always temporarily out of tune, just playing with strong vibrato and bends

Then that's a setup issue, not one inherent with double locking trems.

Not much you can do on a double locking guitar, other than modify your technique, or add extra heavy strings and high tension springs, or a tremolo block, making it single locking with heavy springs or lock it down completely, which kind of defeats the point of it.

I can do just about anything on a Floyded guitar that I can do on another. I'm not big on behind-the-nut Gatton-style tele bends and the such, which obviously are impossible with a lock nut. There are obviously other techniques that the hardware gets in the way of, but

I don't overly love the way double locking trems sit lower in the body as it strains my pick hand and they do go out of tune if you rest your hand on the bridge to play.

what particularly about double locking trems makes them sit lower in the body? Are you just talking about recessed trems? They tend to sit around where a vintage Fender trem would. Because a non-recessed double locking trem will sit around where a tunomatic bridge does, as far as hand position away from the face of the guitar.

Ultimately they require a lot of sensitivity to play as they play up with a more rugged and aggressive technique. They are a whole different animal of instrument in my book.

My last gig, I was reefing on the Floyd so hard that when I let it go I had somehow managed to get the bar under the strings. That obviously put it a little (quite a lot) out of tune. But pull the bar out from under the strings and voila! Perfectly in tune.

I'm a hamfisted heavy handed guitarist that only wishes he had something resembling finesse on the instrument and I have NO problems with a well setup Floyd.

Single locking trems on the other hand are rarely set up to slightly float and thus trill, you can add heavy springs to these with a tremolo stop in the cavity, if you are using light strings, so it doesn't pull back into the body and get the best of both worlds.

The one guitar I've owned with a single locking Floyd never got played. You'd lock the nut, but because the strings weren't locked at the bridge, it would go out of tune anytime you used the bar. So you were constantly using the fine tuners, or reefing on the bar to try to pop it back into tune. If there was no more play in the fine tuners, you had no choice but to unlock the nut and retune. More trouble than they are worth.

You can't do unison bends on a double locking floyd guitar unless you lock it..

Of course you can. You're bending one string up to match the pitch of the adjacent string. What about a double locking Floyd prevents you from doing that? A fully floating trem will dip slightly with the change in string tension from bending, but you can adjust for that by very slightly bending the 'static' note too. If you have any sense of pitch and a half decent pair of ears, it's not difficult to get used to at all.

[Hellbat]

Like G said, you can do everything on a floyd equipped guitar that you can on a hardtail, other than the behind the nut stuff. It just takes learning the techniques such as bracing the trem with the 'meat' of your hand while performing the unison bends. It's not ideal for all situations and takes practice but it isn't witchcraft or anything.

That said, I am a casual trem guy using it for the odd divebomb, trill, or light vibrato on chords. I definitely prefer the feel of playing my hardtail guitars.

[Trem]

Wait, you can't do double bends on floyd's?!

You better tell this guy then.

[rebar71]

Are we talking about bending two strings at the same time? Or bending one while holding a note on another? The latter can certainly be done but will require an adjustment to your technique.

i do both all the time.

[MakeAJazzNoiseHere]

When you do double-stops you have to bend both notes or put a little pressure on the bridge; it's just a slight adaptation to your technique that isn't hard to get used to, just like keeping your intonation correct by pressing harder on some strings than others as we all do without much thought.

I don't really use tremolos much anymore, but I like the feel of the bridge and the tuning is solid. A Floyd with a good hard block of wood to rest on set up dive-only is perfect for me.

[ginsambo]

Well maybe I need floyd lessons from you guys. Just tryed the unison bends technique, its actually very easy to bend up the static string by half a semitone so its not flat.

I'II still stand by the fact that you have to be a more sensitive player, or at least calculating player to use a floating floyd though, because of its architecture. I think what has been said confirms this. At the very least it takes more brainwork. A tom bridge is raw, unadulterated direct expression.

Playing aggressive blues, a floater tends to sap the energy out of a strong vibrato technique and when you want to add a random note like a flattened fifth or something, whilst holding a bend, it takes brainwork to get that note to pitch. Also, when you hit a note hard, initially it is way out of tune, especially the lower open strings. Blues and blues rock and old school hard rock isn't about brainwork. Blues on a floyd to me, always sounds more contrived and I reckon that is why, because the player has to think more and do more elaborate things to acheive the same result. A Tom Bridge just lends itself to more direct expression through pick attack. A floating floyd guitar leans towards the virtuoso style of expression be it Death Metal to Jazz Fusion.

Knocking out a thrashy number sounds heavy, but actually takes a much softer attack than old school hard rock or aggressive blues styles, otherwise all the notes would be out of tune..

So what should I do, fit 11 gauge strings and loads of springs and set it up like a straight jacket, if I still want to use the double locking? I'm not knocking a floating floyd, but it is horses for courses. But one last thing, everyone I know who plays a floating floyd guitar as their beloved mainstay instrument uses a soft pick.....speaks volumes about the best adaptive technique required for the guitar and old school hard rock it is not IMO.

As for the comment about the bridge height of a recessed floating floyd being the same as a Fender, it is, and it is also the reason I don't like Fenders because they make my hand cramp. At the end of the day it what you are used to I guess.

But I'm open to suggestions, if anyone has any advice how to set up a floating, recessed floyd so it is solid as a rock but still able to trill, please let me know, as I am probably missing something.

Anyway I want a RR1 hardtail. I love the SL3 playability, fretboard radius and quality but keep reaching for the others as the recessed floyd does do me in to be honest.

So in conclusion then, in my world the RR1 hardtail is king! Clarity of a 25.5" scale, playability of a Jackson with a traditional TOM bridge for rock solid, hard pick aggressive performance. Must be the best guitar ever made I reckon! Other than Chris Holmes' Stars. I think the guy needs the TOM Bridge. 100% pure bred, unadulterated, rock n' roll meatstake!

[Twitch]

I find compound bends to really be no harder to perform with a FR style bridge. The ones that are impossible with a floater are the ones where you pick one string and bend it while youve subsequently picked the string below it. The string below it detunes as you bend the string above causing an unusable oscillation between the two, which then turns to the same note then continues to oscillate in the other direction afterwards. It just doesnt have the same effect it does when doing it on a fixed bridge.

As far as being lighter handed with a floating bridge? Nah, not a problem for me anyway. Frankly, Ive found being heavy handed is worse on a tunomatic as the strings are more prone to breaking because the bridge doesnt give. So if anything, its the opposite for me. I hardly ever break a string on my FR style guitars, on my string throughs, strings break over the bridge all the time. I use 1.14 mm picks, just to add that for the above post.

[ginsambo]

I use 12mm picks made of Iron, cut out with acyletene torch from old RSJ's!

Seriously though, you hit the strings and don't find that, for a moment the string goes flat as the floyd dips with the energy you've just put into that note? Is my guitar set up too light then you think? Maybe I got it from someone who was a fruit picker? Hardest thing to get used to on a floating floyd is NOT to casually lean the side of you palm against the bridge, as you would do on a TOM Bridge.

This is ONLY my story, it might help the guy if he is not used to Floating Floyds.

One last edit: Thinking about it rationally, whatever bridge style it comes with. You are gonna be so stoked even just being in the same room as that guitar that technique will not be an issue - it is gonna get played to death whatever, so the bridge style is probably of no consequence.

[Twitch]

Could be your string gauge? I use 10-42 or 46 depending if I have to buy D'Addarios rather than Reg. Slinkys. I have noticed the out of tune issue with lighter strings. As far as palm on the bridge, its something you get used to, the lighter you rest your palm on the bridge the better anyway. The lighter your palm is rested, the less effort it takes to go back and forth from palm muting to open playing. If youre cramming your hand down on the bridge, your arm will wear out quicker from the excess muscle your exerting to do so.

Oh, and rest closer to the fulcrum point of the bridge, that way it takes more force to push the trem into the recess.

[scotty]

I agree with everything VitaminG said