Any thoughts on tuning issues with Kahlers or Floyd Roses?

[Bad Apple]

I've got a number of Jacksons (that number being four, and about to be five) and a Charvel. The majority of them are MIJ -- in case that makes a difference -- and have tremolos, and I am very irritated by the tuning stability. They've all been professionally set up, and the tremolo plates are level with the body and the screws are well-anchored.

It just seems like they constantly need to be tuned. Tuning them up right before playing is fine, but having to redo it after a few minutes of playing, with only moderate bending and _no_ trem usage seems ridiculous! I have to say that my complete banger Peavey Predator (early 90s, USA made, but still a Peavey) with a Wilkinson-type trem stays in tune better.

Any comments? Should I just stick to hardtails/TOMs? Especially since I rarely use the trem?

Thanks!

[Chad]

What specific Floyds are on those guitars??

[dvscool]

Which trems are you talking about? Any high quality trem will stay in tune when set up properly. All of my guitars are "floyded" and they all say in tune. Or I wouldn't use them. You either have cheap floyds or they are not set up right....

[jgcable]

Even a cheap Floyd will stay in tune. I have had the cheapest of the cheap and they stayed in tune perfectly. It sounds to me that you are not stretching your strings properly before you lock down the Floyd. Try this...

Unlock the nut. Tune the guitar to pitch. Wail on the whammy bar a few times while it is unlocked. Retune. Now... at the 7th fret and the 12th fret.. pull up on each of the strings with your fingers and let them slap back down on the neck. Don't be afraid to pull up hard on each strings. Do this a few times for every string. Retune. Repeat the entire process. Tune to pitch and lock the strings down. You should be good to go with only the finest of fine tuning needed unless you are going from extreme temperatures.

In my 30 years + of using locking trems I have found that the quality.. nor the amount of springs, nor whether its a full floater or a top mount makes that much of a difference when talking about tuning stability PROVIDING the trem is set up correctly and is in good working order along with the posts which yours sounds like it is. Its almost always about string prep.

[dvscool]

Even a cheap Floyd will stay in tune. I have had the cheapest of the cheap and they stayed in tune perfectly. It sounds to me that you are not stretching your strings properly before you lock down the Floyd. Try this...

Unlock the nut. Tune the guitar to pitch. Wail on the whammy bar a few times while it is unlocked. Retune. Now... at the 7th fret and the 12th fret.. pull up on each of the strings with your fingers and let them slap back down on the neck. Don't be afraid to pull up hard on each strings. Do this a few times for every string. Retune. Repeat the entire process. Tune to pitch and lock the strings down. You should be good to go with only the finest of fine tuning needed unless you are going from extreme temperatures.

In my 30 years + of using locking trems I have found that the quality.. nor the amount of springs, nor whether its a full floater or a top mount makes that much of a difference when talking about tuning stability PROVIDING the trem is set up correctly and is in good working order along with the posts which yours sounds like it is. Its almost always about string prep.

I agree with your "tutorial" . I don't agree that a cheap locking trem will stay in tune very well. And if it does, it won't be for long......but that's just me. Cheap metal, cheap parts, leads to instability, leads to premature ware, leads to a guitar that won't stay in tune. Again, that's just from my experiences....

[lefty]

What jg said, and also try angling the claw a la Carl Verheyen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy-F7iSIopA

[jgcable]

I agree with your "tutorial" . I don't agree that a cheap locking trem will stay in tune very well. And if it does, it won't be for long......but that's just me. Cheap metal, cheap parts, leads to instability, leads to premature ware, leads to a guitar that won't stay in tune. Again, that's just from my experiences....

I agree that a high quality locking trem will last longer in the long term but what this guy is experiencing doesn't sound like a bad case of crappy low grade trem. It sounds like a case of improper string prep. I can generally get about 10 years out of a high quality trem (especially high end Ibanez) and about 5 years out of the most basic locking trem you could find before I was changing out posts and saddles. Generally the first thing to go on a low end locking trem for me was the fine tuners. They would almost always strip out eventually..

[dvscool]

I agree that a high quality locking trem will last longer in the long term but what this guy is experiencing doesn't sound like a bad case of crappy low grade trem. It sounds like a case of improper string prep. I can generally get about 10 years out of a high quality trem (especially high end Ibanez) and about 5 years out of the most basic locking trem you could find before I was changing out posts and saddles. Generally the first thing to go on a low end locking trem for me was the fine tuners. They would almost always strip out eventually..

For sure the fine tuners will go. I always found the posts to be problematic. In fairness to these trems, I have been know to be pretty hard on them
Your spot on regarding the Ibanez stuff (Edge for example) they are killer and can take a ton of abuse, not to mention keep perfect tune. It is interesting,
I know several players that can't make a Floyd stay in tune and therefore, don't use them. I've commented "you just can't set them up" to which they have responded "BAH!" (or some bullshit like that). Its really not that difficult, but possibly I take this "skill" for granted......

[jgcable]

For sure the fine tuners will go. I always found the posts to be problematic. In fairness to these trems, I have been know to be pretty hard on them
Your spot on regarding the Ibanez stuff (Edge for example) they are killer and can take a ton of abuse, not to mention keep perfect tune. It is interesting,
I know several players that can't make a Floyd stay in tune and therefore, don't use them. I've commented "you just can't set them up" to which they have responded "BAH!" (or some bullshit like that). Its really not that difficult, but possibly I take this "skill" for granted......

You do take it for granted. When you have grown up using every type of locking trem imaginable you get really good at setting one up. I always approach it as a balancing act. If the trem is parallel to the body and everything is in good shape its a balancing act between string tension and spring tension. That's where all the adjustments are made. When you have it set correctly you can "feel" it when you tune up to pitch. Everything seems to drop right into place and nothing is fighting anything. I have never had a problem with keeping any type of locking trem in tune providing there wasn't anything worn out. You are right... posts are one of the first thing to look at. I usually shoot a little oil on them when I change strings. I also check for grooves and if there are any I will turn the post a little.

[Bad Apple]

I always used to stretch my strings, but then my tech advised against it. I don't remember the exact reason, but something about it ruining the vibration of the core. I suppose I could try it again. To be honest, though, I tend to avoid locking the floyd down since (a) I know I have to retune a lot and (b) I'm not using the trem anyway. I've considered that it's a Catch-22 and that not locking down is _leading_ to the tuning problems, but I remember in the past (when I did lock) having to adjust the fine tuners so much from constant tuning that I'd eventually have to unlock, reset the fine tuners, and start over again.

To answer Chad, I have a DKMG with (I believe) a JT-580, a DK2M with a Floyd Rose, a Dinky Reverse Professional with a JT-590, and a Charvel Model 4 with a Kahler.


There's also another issue that I didn't mention the first time, but that's how tuning one string makes all the others off by a bit, so it's a long, iterative process to actually get the entire thing in tune. I've tried to kind of work around it by, for example, tuning the lower strings a bit above the correct pitch, so that when I tune the higher strings they'll drop into place. But, again, that's a pain. And I wouldn't think that stretching the strings would help that, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

[84sups]

It does sound like the strings aren't stretched out yet. Stretching the strings does nothing but stabilize them. Been stretching my strings for over 20 years never had any issues

[BayRocker]

To be honest, though, I tend to avoid locking the floyd down since (a) I know I have to retune a lot and (b) I'm not using the trem anyway. I've considered that it's a Catch-22 and that not locking down is _leading_ to the tuning problems, but I remember in the past (when I did lock) having to adjust the fine tuners so much from constant tuning that I'd eventually have to unlock, reset the fine tuners, and start over again.

To answer Chad, I have a DKMG with (I believe) a JT-580, a DK2M with a Floyd Rose, a Dinky Reverse Professional with a JT-590, and a Charvel Model 4 with a Kahler.


There's also another issue that I didn't mention the first time, but that's how tuning one string makes all the others off by a bit, so it's a long, iterative process to actually get the entire thing in tune. I've tried to kind of work around it by, for example, tuning the lower strings a bit above the correct pitch, so that when I tune the higher strings they'll drop into place. But, again, that's a pain. And I wouldn't think that stretching the strings would help that, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

You've got to lock down the thing or it will definitely go out of tune...period. I've got 20 or so Charvels and Jacksons, every one of them Floyded, either orignal Floyd, Scaller, JT-6, etc...
I've got no such tuning problems. My DKMG probably gets the most abuse from me, no problems at all. In fact, I rarely have to retune even after months. If I do, it's a minor adjustment to the fine tuners, not at the tuning peg level. You do have to set the thing up properly in the first place though, and yes the initial tuning can take a bit of effort, ie tuning up a bit so as to let the strings come down to pitch as you tighten the other strings.

Stretching helps because it takes out most of the stretching that a string will do on its own over time. No sense getting the whole thing tuned up perfectly only to have the strings stretch and then you do have to do it again and again til all that stretching takes place naturally.

Any comments? Should I just stick to hardtails/TOMs? Especially since I rarely use the trem?

Thanks!

It just sounds to me that you don't have the patience required to maintain a floating trem. If you rarely use the trem, why wouldn't you avoid it and stick to a fixed bridge? :think: If you decide that you would like to stick to a floating trem, here are Floyd Rose's official string tuning instructions.... good luck!

[Chad]

If you rarely use the trem, why wouldn't you avoid it and stick to a fixed bridge?

I'm not a big trem user, but can give two reasons:

1. Because they feel great under your hand.
2. Because, setup properly, pretty much nothing else has the tuning stability. When playing live, I pretty much stick to one guitar, but I like my backup guitar to have a Floyd. I KNOW that a Floyd guitar will be pretty much fully in tune when I get it out of the case, even if the tuning pegs got bumped or whatever.

[Chad]

Regarding stretching strings, here is my method after tuning up the first time:

1. Put my fingers under a string and pull slowly upward along the length of the string. I don't get carried away yanking. The string is never beyond an inch or so above the fretboard.
2. Bend the string up and down the length of the neck (like when actually playing).
3. Check and adjust tuning. Repeat steps 1 to 3 until a string stays in tune. Then do the same process for the other strings.
4. With the nut still unclamped, play the guitar fairly aggressively for at least 15 minutes while checking and retuning as necessary.
5. Clamp the nut and fine tune.
6. Go crazy with the tremolo. Dive bombs, pull ups, etc. i.e. play aggressively.
7. Fine tune again.

After that process, the guitar should be good to go for a LONG time.

[jdr94]

yup as others have said. you have to stretch your strings. you have to lock the nut. Ive owned many j/c guitars with trems. Be it a jt-500, 580, 580lp, or schaller, properly set up they will stay in tune. sure there will be some minor adjustments needed from time to time. more so if its a jt-500