Floyd Block Physics

[vector]

Was in a debate with a guy over the Stone Tone sustain block and it got me to wondering: My premise is that the sustain block has some albeit limited influence on tone, sustain and resonance due to the number of mechanical parts and the physics that also come into play- pivot point, string tension, saddle friction, spring tension, type of build (i.e. neck thru vs. bolt on vs. set neck) guitar materials etc.

The argument comes down to a pretty subjective division- is it worth the money? My contention is that given the 212% cost increase over a brass big block, the stone tone block can't and doesn't enhance sonic qualities to the same factor.

Any Floyd "experts" here that can break down the physics/mechanics for me? Am I off base or in the ball park on this?

[Newc]

I can't fully dismiss it as total snake oil, if for no other reason than holding out some small bit of hope that respected sources like Floyd Rose aren't such money-grubbing dicks that they'd sell someone such a thing with a straight face.

I do know that saddle and baseplate material are the primary bridge-related tone factors, as evidenced by the difference between a Schaller "JT590" and an OFR made by Schaller.


As far as the actual material composition of the block, I'm leaning towards bullshit, but the difference in overall mass as compared to the stock block would definitely have a tonal influence.

But in the end I just can't see anything about the bridge having an impact aside from the saddles, baseplate, and nut, since those are the primary contact points. I'm waiting for someone to say a titanium saddle screw or locking nut mounting screw (that holds it onto the neck) makes a difference in tone.

As for the price difference, I'm sure working with stone is somewhat more difficult since it can't be cast/molded like metal, and thus more expensive. Plus, it's the new thing.

Waiting for exotic wood sustain blocks made from shop scraps and being sold for the cost of an entire slab of high-quality wood.

[Schadenfreude]

I don`t get into all the technicalities but if mass = tone surely a TOM bridge will offer more sustain than any floyded guitar due to less wood being removed, ideally either in a full size strat body or an LP shape with only 1 hum and no controls. As far as swimming pool routes go if thats the case you`d be better off just buying a non pool route.
I have guitars with a TOM, jackson licensed and OFR and the guitar that sustains for me the longest is my KV Pro with a kahler fixed, that thing just never stops. Personally I`m not convinced floyd upgrades will make a huge amount of difference, especially at the cost, but each to their own. If you `perceive` it to (whether it does or doesn`t) I guess its money well spent just not something I`ve never done nor considered. If the sustain isn`t there as stock I`m not sure many after market mods will change that.

Just my opinion, no flaming please

[vector]

I don`t get into all the technicalities but if mass = tone surely a TOM bridge will offer more sustain than any floyded guitar due to less wood being removed, ideally either in a full size strat body or an LP shape with only 1 hum and no controls. As far as swimming pool routes go if thats the case you`d be better off just buying a non pool route.
I have guitars with a TOM, jackson licensed and OFR and the guitar that sustains for me the longest is my KV Pro with a kahler fixed, that thing just never stops. Personally I`m not convinced floyd upgrades will make a huge amount of difference, especially at the cost, but each to their own. If you `perceive` it to (whether it does or doesn`t) I guess its money well spent just not something I`ve never done nor considered. If the sustain isn`t there as stock I`m not sure many after market mods will change that.

Just my opinion, no flaming please

So in essence, you've nothing meaningful to contribute?
Seriously, wtf does any of that have to do with my question(s)? Looking for info on what impact the various parts of an OFR have on the sustain, tone and resonance and whether it's fair to attribute most or all of that to the sustain block.

[paranoid]

I build my own larger brass blocks and honestly do not notice any tone change, but it is kinda hard to a/b because you will forget what it sounded like before you get it changed and you have to set the guitar up again, which can add variables. I do feel though that it helps the sustain of the lower notes more so then the high notes. it also effects the shutter that some like so well, but I am not in to the shutter effect. I run only 2 springs on most guitars and use ernie ball .008's tuned standard. all my guitars are Charvel, most are import model series with JT-6 trems. but it makes a sustain difference on my none blocked strat headstocks also. On the blocked trems(semi floating) I really am not sure if it makes any change. but do not take my word as gospel, I am just a hobby guitar nut not a scientist!

[Schadenfreude]

So in essence, you've nothing meaningful to contribute?
Seriously, wtf does any of that have to do with my question(s)? Looking for info on what impact the various parts of an OFR have on the sustain, tone and resonance and whether it's fair to attribute most or all of that to the sustain block.

100% correct , its an opinion nothing more.
But, my opinion is that those upgrades don`t really make a huge amount of difference and as you`ve said probably arent worth the cash.
Does it add to the thread, well its a contribution and a discussion point. I`m not sure how much `science` you`ll actually get in the answers, Newc gave a good reply but its opinion based.
Tone and sustain is in the ear of the beholder, if you beleive i makes a difference then its a win

[j2379]

Not sure about how much of a difference it really makes especially once u start adding gain from an amp. I will say you can hear the difference in sustain block w vtrem that has a cheap zinc/pot metal block vs a steel block.

[Jackson8090s]

Was in a debate with a guy over the Stone Tone sustain block and it got me to wondering: My premise is that the sustain block has some albeit limited influence on tone, sustain and resonance due to the number of mechanical parts and the physics that also come into play- pivot point, string tension, saddle friction, spring tension, type of build (i.e. neck thru vs. bolt on vs. set neck) guitar materials etc.

The argument comes down to a pretty subjective division- is it worth the money? My contention is that given the 212% cost increase over a brass big block, the stone tone block can't and doesn't enhance sonic qualities to the same factor.

Any Floyd "experts" here that can break down the physics/mechanics for me? Am I off base or in the ball park on this?

Ah, wtf...

[Jackson8090s]

I know some of ya probably went to the site to read up on it, but the first paragraph pretty much nails it. FR has a pretty good reputation, their products have never failed me personally.

http://www.floydrose.com/catalog/upg...-sustain-block , Don't wanna leave the site here ya go..

These patented blocks are made of granite, and are designed to enhance and strengthen the sound of your tremolo-equipped instrument across the entire audio spectrum. Granite, when quarried in its natural state, is not only of an ideal density for the purpose of sustain, but also has a crystalline atomic structure which is ideal for sonic transference—it requires no factory processing or dilution, and the natural change in sound, upon installation, is so drastic that signal loss from the guitar to the amplifier will be decreased by at least 30%. The blocks are crafted from Volcano Black Absolute Granite, the compression strength of which is 19,000 psi/130,000 kpa and the tension strength of which is 700 psi/4,800 kpa; this is the 4th densest material on earth, just behind Diamond, Carbon and Quartz! Comes with stainless steel sustain block mounting screws. There's more on the site. They provide PAT# on the rear image of the block, I've not looked them up, but I'm sure the back these claims they made? However....

My contention is that given the 212% cost increase over a brass big block, the stone tone block can't and doesn't enhance sonic qualities to the same factor.

Brilliant , brilliant

Where is your testing equipment and data findings to PROVE your assertion? With out factual scientific data your just blowing more internet forum fluff. I'm sure FR's RD department would love to hear your findings as well, hell they might even offer you a job genius!

Edited for spelling/grammar error "here" , "hear". Also extending my apologies to Vector as this comes off insulting, when he only has genuine interest in physics,tone, sustain qualities, sorry buddy.

[vector]

I know some of ya probably went to the site to read up on it, but the first paragraph pretty much nails it. FR has a pretty good reputation, their products have never failed me personally.

http://www.floydrose.com/catalog/upg...-sustain-block , Don't wanna leave the site here ya go..

These patented blocks are made of granite, and are designed to enhance and strengthen the sound of your tremolo-equipped instrument across the entire audio spectrum. Granite, when quarried in its natural state, is not only of an ideal density for the purpose of sustain, but also has a crystalline atomic structure which is ideal for sonic transference—it requires no factory processing or dilution, and the natural change in sound, upon installation, is so drastic that signal loss from the guitar to the amplifier will be decreased by at least 30%. The blocks are crafted from Volcano Black Absolute Granite, the compression strength of which is 19,000 psi/130,000 kpa and the tension strength of which is 700 psi/4,800 kpa; this is the 4th densest material on earth, just behind Diamond, Carbon and Quartz! Comes with stainless steel sustain block mounting screws. There's more on the site. They provide PAT# on the rear image of the block, I've not looked them up, but I'm sure the back these claims they made? However....



Brilliant , brilliant

Where is your testing equipment and data findings to PROVE your assertion? With out factual scientific data your just blowing more internet forum fluff. I'm sure FR's RD department would love to here your findings as well, hell they might even offer you a job genius!

Is this a sore subject? Given your initial "wtf" I've apparently hit a nerve. Not my intent. I'm seeking answers, the likes of which FR hasn't answered, even with the myriad technical data on the tension strength of the granite. I've read all that long ago. It doesn't answer my questions regarding other physics issues that effect sound characteristics as the relate to a Floyded guitar. To be clear, I'm NOT saying ST blocks don't do what they claim, nor am I proposing that my hunch is anything but that. A theory. A theory that the sustain block is not solely responsible for the tone, and resonance and sustain.

You asked about my data to support this. If I had the data (or the wherewithall to amass said data) do you think I'd be opening my self up to your charming and insightful demeanor? I can say that playing as long as I have, and learning both first hand and from talking with pro techs and builders about trems, I know a little about the subject, enough to wonder if placing complete responsibility for the tone, sustain and resonance on the sustain block is reasonable. The make up and tension strength of the sustain block really aren't the issue. The question is: don't factors such as friction on string saddles, the rigidity of the neck and the attachment method, the wood used in building, the stability and integrity of the Floyd's install also contribute to those characteristics? And if so, to what degree?

And on an aside re: data and proof- It's not in my nature to blindly accept the technical info presented on any product's website; kinda foolish to accept it as truly objective and unbiased. They're trying to push units, not educate us on tension strength and physics. To that end, I wonder if the stone block is really 212% quantifiably better than say a brass big block or is a titanium block 203% more effective than a stone block.

[xenophobe]

I have noticed improvements upgrading from a JT590 to a Gotoh. On my black strathead, there were a number of dead spots on the neck... well, not dead spots but areas where it just wouldn't ring out like it should... switching to the Gotoh made ring and sustain a lot more consistent over the fretboard. When I've upgraded standard OFR to Gotoh, I didn't really notice any difference.

As for changing blocks... if you're replacing potmetal or steel with brass, yeah I bet there is some difference. But if you're already running an JT590, OFR or Gotoh you've already got brass blocks installed. I'm not sure how much of a difference upgrading to a big block really helps. I doubt it is cost effective to replace.

[Newc]

I don`t get into all the technicalities but if mass = tone surely a TOM bridge will offer more sustain than any floyded guitar due to less wood being removed,

What is the mass of the wood being removed? Is it more than, less than, or equal to the mass of the Floyd assembly (bridge, claw, springs)? My guess is the Floyd assembly has a higher mass and greater density than the wood, so in essence you're adding more mass, rendering the wood-removal argument invalid.

[Snow007]

Here's my general thoughts about this:

I think changing your block can have an effect on your tone, especially acoustically. I think the manufacturers of the aftermarket blocks describe the changes their blocks will make fairly accurately but the results are a little exaggerated. Ex. Brass sounds rounder, titanium sounds brighter and weighs less. With that said, the best option to change your tone is to adjust the knobs on your amp or guitar or get a different amp/speakers that suits you better.

Some guitars just sound better than others when put together due to the right combination of build, hardware and woods.

Here's some experiences I've had:

Jackson SL1 - Went from the stock 32mm block to a Floyd Rose 32mm tungsten block on a Schaller Floyd Rose. Slight increase in brightness, clarity, sustain and volume. Noticeable increase in weight.

Ibanez RG 570 - Went from the stock block to a FU Tone brass big block. I noticed the biggest effect on blocks with this change. Tone became rounder with bigger bass and less treble. Increase in sustain and volume. Definite increase in weight. I would say clarity was decreased.

Ibanez RG 570 - Went from a stock block to a Hantung titanium block. Tone became brighter. Slight increase in sustain and volume. Seems to have the most clarity of any block I've tried. Definitely a little less weight.

Ibanez RG 520 - Went from a stock block to a Hantung brass block. Tone became rounder with bigger bass and less treble. Slight increase in sustain and volume. Couldn't notice much difference in clarity or weight.

[Grandturk]

I'm currently recording the same solo over and over using different guitars and the same amp/pedal. Honestly I'm about halfway through the experiment and I can't say I hear a real difference between four different guitars, each with different build materials and pickups. So I don't think the sustain block on a Floyd makes a hell of a difference once the drums and bass and rhythm guitar come in.

[Tetsuo]

I'm currently recording the same solo over and over using different guitars and the same amp/pedal. Honestly I'm about halfway through the experiment and I can't say I hear a real difference between four different guitars, each with different build materials and pickups. So I don't think the sustain block on a Floyd makes a hell of a difference once the drums and bass and rhythm guitar come in.

Impossible!!! That means I can't keep spending money chasing the elusive tone holy grail if that is true! Realistically I think we all know that the effect is somewhat minimal. Lower in the food chain of things that effect tone. When you consider it in a mix even more so.

Is Floyd Rose going to sell another product because they can? If I am on the sales team and someone asked me if we should go to market with a granite block my answer is um yes someone will buy it. That isn't saying it is bad or doesn't have any effect but the simple thing is it makes sense to bring it to market even if it is marginal. Guitars are a strange thing a very personal item to us junkies. We may fall in love with a sound because when we pick up that guitar or amp or pickup etc... Or playing is just spot on that day and or our ears are suffering from fatigue from what we are currently playing. Then we fall in love with that new setup.