Winding direction on slant headstock affects tension, displacement of Floyd nut

[slacker]

My guitars are a Dinky reverse and early 2000's Dean Custom 450 with slant headstock, normal direction.

(Japanese, 43mm nut, LP bridge, 96 serial prefix, sunburst veneer, thinking it is alder because the un-reinforced floyd inserts have not moved, dual duncan designed humbucker. What model number might this be? DK?? )

Both have Floyd nut screwed in from above, and both have been pulled aside slightly. Because of how the strings were wound, they all pull in the same direction on an angle from the nut. By winding in the reverse direction, one string pulls the opposite direction, one is inline, the rest slant the same direction but at less of an angle, less sideways force on the nut.

This also changes the length of the string, which changes the tension. So that if it is a down tuned, heavy gauge string, it might end up too slack.

Posting here as I have not seen this anywhere, and they are interesting effects.

[JJ119]

No lock nut?

How many wraps do you have on each post?
I have been told that without a lock nut, the wound strings should have at least 3 wraps, and 5 or 6 on the unwound strings.

My Ibanez does not have a lock nut.
9 gauge - 42 strings.
I float the Tremolo.

No odd Neck // Headstock action.
Strings do not come out of the nut.


I always wind to the inside.
Top to bottom.

[Mudlark]

Could be a DX10D Dinky.

[metalhobo]

This also changes the length of the string, which changes the tension.

Nope. common myth. the tension (as a function of pitch) is affected by the vibrating length of the string (in addition to string gauge) but not the non-vibrating length, e.g. before the nut or after the bridge.

the non-vibrating portions do affect, but only in non-locking configurations (i.e. this is not applicable for your floyd rose guitars) the "stretchiness" (or stiffness) of the strings.

[pianoguyy]

Nope. common myth. the tension (as a function of pitch) is affected by the vibrating length of the string (in addition to string gauge) but not the non-vibrating length, e.g. before the nut or after the bridge.
the non-vibrating portions do affect, but only in non-locking configurations (i.e. this is not applicable for your floyd rose guitars) the "stretchiness" (or stiffness) of the strings.

For example -
If you have a piece of wood 4 feet long. You grab it, you bend it, you break it.
But now you take that 2 foot long piece.... it is harder to bend it. Maybe, if you ate your Wheaties, you can break it, but it is tough
Now take that 1 foot long piece - that shit doesn't even bend.

It was the same piece of wood, no matter how long it was. So why was it so much stronger as it got shorter.
Wood got a bad case of Napoleon complex? Short dick syndrome?
Nah, it's science.

[pianoguyy]

always wind to the inside.

Nothing more needs said on the issue.

[slacker]

1) This is a locking nut, both guitars.
2) There is absolutely a difference in tension when winding from the closer or further side of the tuning machine.
3) Counterintuitive, but that tension, and pitch, are definitely retained after clamping.

On the .068 sixth string at G1 the difference in tension is pronounced. Dean, I had to go to the far side to keep it from feeling smooshy. No chance to oppose the force of the other strings. For drop tuning this is an argument for reverse headstock

"Always wind to the inside" does not address the issue of the nut pulling sideways off the neck. All force pushing the same way forces the nut off the neck, I have seen this on these two guitars and several other older slants. The two wood screws are not strong enough to resist the force. I will correct with shim on the deflected side of the screw holes, and wood glue.

Here is what I think is the equation:
F = 1/2L * sqrt T/u
F = frequency
L = length
T = tension
u = mass of string in kilograms / meter

And L is the total length of the string, even past the nut or saddle. Think of the nut as a fret, and it happens to be fretted there. String tension is the same clamped or not.

(Yes it looks like a DX10D. What year were those made with an alder body? Not too much PII, but it is 9670nnn with wavy backside grain. And those post inserts would have pushed through poplar by now. It was strung for years with tens, when the spec calls for nines.)

[pianoguyy]

look, mom
no hands

[metalhobo]

And L is the total length of the string, even past the nut or saddle. Think of the nut as a fret, and it happens to be fretted there. String tension is the same clamped or not.

No. L is only the vibrating length. The non-vibrating segments don't have an effect unless you're analyzing the elasticity of the string in a non-clamped scenario. barring sympathetic vibrations, in a static consideration the segments of the strings past the nut or bridge locks can be omitted.

think of it this way: if you don't cut your strings after restringing, do the dangly ends affect the tension? no!

[slacker]

Then we need another equation . . . for if that string extended ten meters beyond the nut, how much tension would be required to get it up to pitch?

[metalhobo]

Then we need another equation . . . for if that string extended ten meters beyond the nut, how much tension would be required to get it up to pitch?

exactly the same amount as for a string that does not extend beyond the nut.

[slacker]

Locked at nut, the overall string tension will change when fretted at the 12th?

[pianoguyy]

Does anyone else think 'slacker' is just a troll trying to get his bullshit to appear in google.

[pianoguyy]

Put a capo on a guitar but do not retune to E. Does the tension change?
Put a capo on a guitar, this time retune to E. Does the tension change?

Try bending the E string to the G string at the 1st fret.
Try bending the E string to the G string at the 12th fret.


SCIENCE

[slacker]

wow . . . that was rude!

This post was started as a benefit to others, to address a problem with slant headstocks, something I associate with Jackson Dinky. I cannot post a picture for some reason, from URL or otherwise, to show the advantage of winding on the opposite to normal side.

As a reference to others having a serious tension discussion, including the total string length, see https://forum.bareknucklepickups.co....?topic=22424.0

ascii art . . . four of six strings . . . reverse headstock, reduces nut lateral stress

short way, from bottom
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long way, from top of tuner, increases nut lateral stress

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