RS Guitarworks electronic kit

[straycat]

TheL.P.forum has lots of threads about their kits.We all know L.P.owners are some of the most anal and boarderline fanatical types.If you can please the most die hard Gibsonite you have acomplished something that is very hard to do.
These kits are a great and low cost way to improve tone on an already great sounding guitar.The one thing to remenber wire the kit the way the instuctions tell you too that way you will get the most out of the kit.
My 93 Fusion H-H (mahogony body) is such a joy to play and I give all the credit for the guitars huge tone to the RS kit and the J-50s.Very L.P.ish with tons more bite.

[cbope]

Guys... analog electronic circuits are actually very complex taking into account both frequency and time domains, even though on the surface they look extremely simple. In many electronic components that are used in the sound signal path, the quality and tolerances of the component have as much to do with the resulting sound as the value of the component (resistance, capacitance, inductance, etc.). Also, components such as pots can have small amounts of capacitance or inductance and this affects the sound, often in a negative way. Components designed for sound applications will typically have tighter tolerances and better control over these variables so that the sound signal is not adversely affected. Cheap components designed for general electronics use typically can have larger tolerances and less control over these secondary variables. Simply measuring the DC resistance of a pot and comparing it to another one which measures the same does not mean both will sound the same in an instrument. Think about pickups.... compare a hand-wound quality pickup to a machine-made one from the far east. Which one sounds better? Even if both have the same DC resistance, I think we all know which one will sound better. No argument there.

With that being said... there are a LOT of overpriced "audio" and "music" related electronic components for sale. I'm not saying they are low quality, just that their cost can sometimes be ridiculous, especially if you know what the "real" cost of manufacturing the component really is. And there are definitely some shams out there.

Sorry if it seems like I'm ranting, but it's annoying that some people come to conclusions without knowing the facts or having any evidence or expertise to back it up. It's also a quite well known fact that many MIJ Jacksons have low quality "cheap" electronics. Luckily, Jackson put the quality where it matters in these guitars... in the construction, woods, neck, etc; and left the easy to upgrade parts (pots, pickups, switches, jacks) as cost cutters.

[straycat]

Guys the only reason I ever suggested using the RS kits is because it has improved the tone of EVERY guitar I've installed them in.
You seem to want to argue the physics and make the assumption that it cant work.I was skeptical at first too but this is a great product and very cost effective way to improve your guitars tone.Its not just me many big name artists love these kits as well as thousands of other people.

[Twisteramps]

Guys the only reason I ever suggested using the RS kits is because it has improved the tone of EVERY guitar I've installed them in.
You seem to want to argue the physics and make the assumption that it cant work.I was skeptical at first too but this is a great product and very cost effective way to improve your guitars tone.Its not just me many big name artists love these kits as well as thousands of other people.

I played two les pauls, one with the RS kit one without, same pickups, no real difference in tone. SLO100 talked about the taper being better... and the tone being better when he was moving the pots. Bret, are you noticing a difference when you have the volume full up? If you do, I bet it's because the new pots have a different resistance value than stock.

Believe what you want folks, it's your money. I still think with an audio taper pot and a small capacitor you can get probably 99% of the effects of these high dollar potentiometers, and if you don't change your volume and tone controls on your guitars, then it doesn't matter at all. I never use my tone control, so I'm obviously not the 'target market' for these upgrades. They should sell plexiglass control cavity covers though so the LP owners can show off how big and mighty their new capacitors are.

Pete

[hippietim]

They should sell plexiglass control cavity covers though so the LP owners can show off how big and mighty their new capacitors are.

I would buy one. My tone capacitors are huge.

[Twisteramps]

The more I think about these big capacitors... makes me wonder. Consider this:

Size on capacitors relates to voltage handling. Those little caps in a guitar pedal are 50v or smaller - sometimes even around 10-15v. Bigger ones are higher voltage - the bumblebee caps and the like are really more suited for guitar amps, since they handle more voltage.

HOWEVER, a lot of audio gurus state that you need to 'break in' caps with voltage before they start to sound good. Go to sozoamps.com and read some of their literature... I actually believe some of this, because I recapped one of my 18 watt Marshalls with Sozos and it sounds good now, but sounded like crap at first.

So lets say you have a 400-600v cap on your les paul, that's putting out millivolts instead of even a volt. How long is it going to take for that cap to 'burn in' at that voltage?

Pete

small addendum: really small value caps (generally measured in picofarads, like ceramics and micas) are high voltage handling from the start. Forgot about that, thought I'd mention it before someone started swinging that info at me.

[hippietim]

Those audio gurus clearly don't know about mojo. Poor bastards.

[slo100]

Pete, like I said I went from 300K to 500K so regardless of brand or quality, there would be a difference based on that perspective alone. I can't comment on any perceived or real tonal improvement because its not apples to apples. I like the dimed tone better but that is mostly because 500K pots sound better than 300K pots with humbuckers (to me). I also agreed that I would expect there to be little to no difference when all controls are dimed.

What was clearly evident was the improved taper. The stock Gibson controls' tapers kicked in around 2 on the dial meaning no real dropoff when turning from 10 to 3. I would hit 2 or so just near the end of the pot's travel and a steep taper was evident. This is hard to deal with when you use the controls mid-song as I often do. No two ways about it there was a marked improvement in this area.

I don't feel $5 is 'high dollar' for a pot. Your opinion may vary. I usually pay $12 for DiMarzios which are made by who knows who!

Regardless, I don't know of a way to change a 300K pot to 500K by soldering on capacitors so something had to give...

:-)

Bret

[Twisteramps]

Yep, I looked it up on their website and it's an audio taper pot, which has been around forever. I really doubt they have a 'custom taper' other than just telling the pot manufacturer to use audio instead of linear taper. My Randall RM100 uses an audio taper pot for the master volume, and I run it at about 2 o'clock at gigs. It's not that my amp is underpowered, it's just that (like your new volume pot) the volume is distributed more evenly across the entire sweep. I wasn't referring so much to individual components as the entire $100 or whatever kit. $5.95 a pot is reasonable for guitar parts, but $100 for a kit? I'll pass.

And yeah, you can't change the resistance with a capacitor, but you can put a small capacitor on a volume control so as you turn it down the highs aren't attenuated. I also know a way to make a tone control true bypass so it's totally out of the circuit too. It's something Ken Fischer came up with years ago.

Pete

[hippietim]

Fender sells those no load pots too Pete - so when you are on 10 the pot is bypassed.

[straycat]

Tim that is true you need to "burn" in the cap for about 30 min then it will sound like it should.The prices range for the kits run from $35.95 to $64.95 I think thats a steal.The $64.95 kit is a complete kit Pots, caps, wire,switchcraft input jack and switch.

[Twisteramps]

Fender sells those no load pots too Pete - so when you are on 10 the pot is bypassed.

I'm surprised Fischer never sued them... he mentions how to do that in the Trainwreck pages and that he had a patent on it back in the 80s. All you do is take the pot apart and scratch a spot on the end of the track where the wiper won't connect. If the pot can be taken apart easily, it takes about 5 minutes tops.

[slo100]

I would probably do that if I had the patience to dismantle the tone pots!

As with most things like this maybe one would hear a difference between pots and capacitors in a good sounding room with just you and the amp. As soon as you hit the stage in a room with crappy acoustics, bass player, and drummer it all goes out the window!

I read a Warren Haynes interview a while back where he was asked about pots, pickups, and electronics in his guitars and his answer was along the lines of "who knows...whatever was in the guitar when I got it." He has some of the most righteous tones out there...if he doesn't care...should I?

[hippietim]

I would probably do that if I had the patience to dismantle the tone pots!

As with most things like this maybe one would hear a difference between pots and capacitors in a good sounding room with just you and the amp. As soon as you hit the stage in a room with crappy acoustics, bass player, and drummer it all goes out the window!

I read a Warren Haynes interview a while back where he was asked about pots, pickups, and electronics in his guitars and his answer was along the lines of "who knows...whatever was in the guitar when I got it." He has some of the most righteous tones out there...if he doesn't care...should I?

And there you have it. Excellent post.

[slo100]

Thanks, Tim...now you can sell me your Hovlands cheap since we've determined they make no difference! ;-)