Intonation - am I too hard on it?

[Immortal]

Hi.

In Christmas time I sat down and spent whole day with my guitar. I cleaned neck and every little nook on it. I decided to set the intonation. I've set the intonation for 52 strings the way that the saddle is screwed in the end of the sides. Is something wrong?

Now I've checking the intonation for about 30 minutes constantly and it is a little, just a little over the green.
I heard that since you're dealing with floating bridges you'll never get your open and 12t to pitch without blocking it. I'm not saying that it drastically increases but I just want to make it perfect.

I was checking also the 1st fret of the lowest gauge and since it's tuned on D the tuner shows D# on 1st fret but also a little over green. The red next to green sort of blinks. It has dim glow not light.

I'm wondering if you, floyd guys, are dealing with the same thing? Is this normal? I'm pretty much of a perfectionist when it comes to my Jackson.

Help! [img]images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

[Newc]

Re: Intonation - am I too hard on it?

The guitar cannot be intonated perfectly because of the way it's made - something to do with the fret spacing for each string, and in order to keep the guitar in relative tune, you have to settle for a relative intonation (or rather, almost intonated).

Newc

[axeman81]

Re: Intonation - am I too hard on it?

This is why LSR tuners are available, no ? [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

- Rune.

[toejam]

Re: Intonation - am I too hard on it?

Originally posted by Rune The Axeman:
This is why LSR tuners are available, no ? [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

- Rune.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Uh, no. Tuners won't help intonation. A tempered tuning system like the Earvana nut or the Buzz Feiten system will help, though.

[mm2002]

Re: Intonation - am I too hard on it?

by Immortal: I'm wondering if you, floyd guys, are dealing with the same thing? Is this normal? I'm pretty much of a perfectionist when it comes to my Jackson.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Before I answer that question I want to hear some MP3s of your playing. Are you really that precise or are you just another dumbass asking stupid non-relevant questions?? [img]graemlins/brow.gif[/img]

[Black Mariah]

Re: Intonation - am I too hard on it?

Newc: A properly intonated guitar has a 12th fret harmonic that exactly matches the pitch of a fretted note at the 12th fret. That is it. Whether the other notes are out of tune or not is completely irrelevant to intonation. You're not describing intonation when you talk about indovidual notes being slightly off. That is a byproduct of a tempered tuning system. Intonation is a compensation for the errors in this tuning system, not an actual way of making a guitar in tune all the time.

Really, this made more sense before I typed it. [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Immortal: Some intonation tips. DO NOT intonate your guitar while it is laying down on its back. This puts pressure on the neck that can cause the strings to drop in pitch. Always hold it in a playing position while checking the harmonic against the fretted note.

Due to the nature of the fret placement system used for the western scale, the first few frets will always be a bit off. There is no way around it aside from the aforementioned specialised compensation systems (Buzz Feiten, etc.). It is COMPLETELY NORMAL for a guitar to be slightly out of tune around the first fret.

I don't think I've sat the intonation on any of my guitars in a few years, and I jump gauges constantly. You'd be surprised how much just keeping your guitar set up properly will help out intonation problems.

[jgcable]

Re: Intonation - am I too hard on it?

Originally posted by mm2002:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> by Immortal: I'm wondering if you, floyd guys, are dealing with the same thing? Is this normal? I'm pretty much of a perfectionist when it comes to my Jackson.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Before I answer that question I want to hear some MP3s of your playing. Are you really that precise or are you just another dumbass asking stupid non-relevant questions?? [img]graemlins/brow.gif[/img] </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with Mark on this one. I am not saying that your question is non-relevant but I have heard too many "guitarists" claim that the Feiten system really made a difference or that they are so anal about intonation and spend countless hours making sure its perfect and then when you hear them play you wonder what the heck they are talking about. To answer your intial post question.. YES, you are to hard on it. I always suggest to my students to concentrate more on practice and less on the little things that keep you from practice.

[PowerTube]

Re: Intonation - am I too hard on it?

Laugh if you will, but I've actually heard amp and pickup combinations that made a difference in my perception of intonation. It's hard to explain, but I've known amp settings to do that. That's why I'm not so anal about intonation anymore.

In other words, Buzz WHO?
[img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Immortal]

Re: Intonation - am I too hard on it?

What dooes my playing ability have to do with setting the intonation on my guitar? Whether I'm good or bad in your opinion, I still want to set the intonation as near perfect as possible.

P.S.: I've seen poor people driving BMW if you know what I mean.


Black Mariah & others, thanks for your participation and giving me useful advices. I never set my intonation in laying position. I take it to playing position (standind or sitting) and check it.

[toejam]

Re: Intonation - am I too hard on it?

Originally posted by Immortal:
What dooes my playing ability have to do with setting the intonation on my guitar? Whether I'm good or bad in your opinion, I still want to set the intonation as near perfect as possible.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't think they're talking about your ability. I think they're talking more of technique, like if you push down too hard on the strings. If you've got a lighter touch, that'll be help your intonation.

When checking intonation at the 12th fret, if the fretted note reads higher than the harmonic, you need to lenghten the string and bring the saddle back more. If the fretted note is flat, then you shorten the string by moving the saddle closer to the neck.

[toejam]

Re: Intonation - am I too hard on it?

Also, what are you tuning to? If you use lower tunings (D, C, B, A) you'll have a harder time keeping the intonation on than you would if tuning to E, Eb. The lower you go, the more your intonation will be off, and sometimes you can't get certain guitars to intonate perfectly.

Also, how high do you keep the action of your strings? The lower, the better.

[Black Mariah]

Re: Intonation - am I too hard on it?

Playing ability has dick to do with intonation. It doesn't fucking matter if someone sucks balls, if they want their intonation right then let them have it fucking right.

PowerTube: I know exactly what you mean. You can put the same guitar through different amps and the PERCEIVED intonation will be off. That's why the guys in Soilwork have notes on their guitars that I don't. [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Immortal]

Re: Intonation - am I too hard on it?

toejam, I use D tuning. If I set my action lower the frets start to buzz.

BM, thanks for the support.
I'll check and set the intonation later and post a reply if Your Eminence Mr. MM woudln't mind.

[jgcable]

Re: Intonation - am I too hard on it?

A perfect example of how irrevalent perfect intonation on a guitar is Malmsteen. By varying finger pressure on the strings he can actually play a slightly out of tune guitar and make it sound perfectly in tune. I saw a demo of it once. Both chords and solos. It was amazing. He let a fan flatten or sharpen some of his strings. He then strummed the guitar once to hear what was off and proceded to play the guitar perfectly in tune. Perfect dead nuts intonation is a waste of time if you play jumbo frets and a locking full floating trem. When you fret notes on jumbo frets they sharpen. When you bend notes on a full floater you flatten the rest of the notes. You can especially hear it on double stop bends. You can hear that ghost descending harmonic that is caused by the bridge being pulled forward. On chording, strings go sharp especially on major chords on the 1st 3 frets. I am not trying to bust your stones, I just don't think that dead nuts perfect intonation is that overly important in the grand scheme of playing. Of course the closer the better but there comes a point where close is certainly good enough.

[Immortal]

Re: Intonation - am I too hard on it?

jgcable, this is what I wanted. Why shouldn't try to make it perfect if it's possible? I know how the pressure of touch works on the tone of the fret. Today I've set my intonation, I can say, to pitch on every strings, only the sixth (the lowest) as a bit sharp. Not too much so I am still able to play powerchords above 10th fret without any serious mistakes. Above 12th fret it becomes a little disharmonized but as you've said about Malmsteen - even I subconsciously bend the higher tone of played powerchord so it sound good.

I noticed that tuners are just for setting the strings in general. The best way of setting the strings for me is to playing a powerchord somewhere above 5th fret. When it sounds good, you leave as it is. The tuner does not recognize this tonal change on its scale whether the scale is not complete.