spings position and stiff strings

[eiopago]

hi,
i have a little problem on my usa kelly.
now, on my old kv4 i use d`addario`s 0.10 - 0.52 and the action is quite low ( about 1.20 mm at 12th fret ). i like the way the strings fele, very smooth and very easy to bend.
on my new kelly, the same strings ( same gauge and brand ) feel way too stiff, a lot stiffer that on my kv4.
i have to say that the springs that hold the floyd rose have the same position on both guitars , sort of :
/
/
/
-------
\
\
\
i mean not really like that but you get the idea.

what do you think is the problem?
it can`t be the heavy gauge as a friend of mine told me, because as i said i use the same type of strings on all my guitars.
he suggested me to position the spings on my kelly in parallel to reduce the stiffness.

is that going to soften the feel a bit ?

thatnks in advance

[Sunbane]

I don't think you will get any significant difference in tension by rearranging the springs, because you will have to tighten the spring claw to get the bridge level anyway.

Some guitars seem to be inherently "stiffer" than others, even when they appear to be identical. I'm starting to wonder if it has to do with the amount of flexibility in the neck or something. I would say your solution is either going to a lighter string gauge, or use that guitar for a lower tuning.

A few general things:

* Long scale has more tension than short scale.
* Stop tail has more tension than string-through (as far as I've heard).
* Low action feels stiffer than high action.
* String tension varies between string brands. D'Addarios are tighter than Ernie Ball for instance.

[dg]

How many springs are in there? You may be able to go with one less spring to get a slinkier feel. Like Sunbane said, the actual tension has to stay the same to balance with the strings at a given tuning, but with fewer springs they will start out at a more stretched position, and this usually gives less stiff of a feel. The actual tension of the strings will stay exactly the same, but when you bend, the bridge will rock forward a little easier and make it feel like less tension.

[eiopago]

i have 3 springs and having only 2 would mean getting the screws further down to hold the tremolo, so as you said, that will make the tension remain the same, so i have 2 options:

1 use a lither gauge
2 tune to maybe Eb

i don`t like either
but thanks for the help

[dg]

One more thing to try is weaker springs. Springs tend to feel less stiff if they are more stretched out at the trem's zero-point. I can't find different spring strengths at the usual places like Allparts or Stewmac, but this guy on eBay has strong, medium, & weak spring sets for sale:

http://item.express.ebay.com/Musical-Instruments_Guitars_Guitar-Parts-Accessories_Players-Tremolo-Springs-Set-of-3-Weak_W0QQitemZ130103754628QQihZ003QQptdnZGuitarQ20PartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQddnZMusicalQ20InstrumentsQQadnZGuitarsQQptdiZ666QQddiZ1300QQadiZ1299QQcmdZExpressItem

[T@rgetDrone]

Man DG, I can't tell you how much possible grief you may have just saved me w/that link! I generally HATE (with a passion) the stiffness of stock springs on most trems. I have tried (with little to no success) to "break in" or stretch all my springs. I even go through the trouble of rotating them in trying to get a better feel. I drop one spring on all my Trems anyway. That gives me some extras laying around. So I manually try to stretch them out over a period of time. All I usually end up with is a stiff spring that has been stretched (DUH). I.E., so far it has been a near futile waste of my time and energy. I'm going to order a couple set of medium and weak springs to toss into my Jacksons and see what happens.

Thanks again for the link. It's made me blowing off the entire day doing next to nothing except for browsing the net worth while.

[Rkirby]

I'm new to the board but oh well.

Rearranging the springs, and using less, can decrease tension quite a bit (i've noticed), when coupled with changing action/intonation. In all of my FR guitars I have the springs set as follows:

2 springs on bass side, both parallel.
1 spring on treble side at a steep angle (location on block is all the way to the left, location on plate is 3rd position from the right , placing it right next to the two bass springs).

This seems to give the whammy a better, fluid feel. Of course, then when you bend the strings, the whammy gives a little more which gives the strings a little less tension. Raising your action, and readjusting your intonation gives you a better feel as well. A little bit goes a long way, though. It improves your grip on the string and allows you to control the note better (IMHO).

Experiment possibly with other strings. I used D'addario on one guitar and had to max out the springs, then I switch brands to DR/Curt Mangan. I actually had to remove a spring and still loosen the tension. Keep in mind, the gauges were the same (actually slightly thicker!).

I hope that helps a little.

[straycat]

I'm confused now.

[Rkirby]

I'm confused now.

Using less springs and increasing their "stretch" can reduce string stiffness.
Changing spring configuration to increase the stretch can, again, reduce stiffness
Raising the action can increase your grip on the string and will give the illusion of having reduced stiffness but you're actually just improving "form (i guess you can call it").
Each brand has their own manufacturing procedure and quality control standards. The percentage of each alloy in the string can affect the stiffness, which can very set by set (not just brand by brand) if the quality control isn't that great.

[eiopago]

i`m very confused.
i was previously told that re-arranging the springs would not affect how stiff the strings feel.
i mean, i understand that having weaker or rearranged springs will affect the way the whammy feels, that`s obvious, less resistance from the spings more smoothness on the whammy, but that`s not my problem.
the strings on my guitar feel stiff when playing power chords, single notes , arpeggios, without any bending at all.
so what`s the final answer.
do i get a smoother feel of the strings, a smoother feel on the whammy or both by rearranging the springs or putting weaker ones?

[dg]

Most of what we've been suggesting will only help make bending or trem use feel smoother or easier by making the trem a little easier to deflect from the zero point. If the problem is too much tension when fretting, then we're right back to the first suggestions of lighter strings or a dropped tuning. Is the action much higher on the new guitar then on the old one? You mentioned that it was really low on the KV4. That might account for some of the difference in how it feels for fretting notes. Lowering the action might help, but it wont help for making bends any easier.

[Special-K]

My springs are like this:


And this is the best way in my opinion...Because the tension
is on all strings almost totally equal as I heard...and I don`t
know it feels awesome

[eiopago]

the kv4 has the same action ( interms of the distance between the bottom of the low E string to the top of the 12th fret as the kelly).
1 thing that i forgot to say is that on the kelly the d string feels quite a bit stiffer than the rest of the strings.
i thought that maybe this new piece of information might help...

[straycat]

How far is the spring claw from the body?If you position the spring claw about 1/2 in from the body you will have less tension on the strings.If the trem sits up in the back detune the strings untill it rests in a level position.Thats the only way I know to relieve the tight feeling.

[Rkirby]

If you're noticing tension all of the time (when fretting chords), then you're issue isn't with the springs (sorry). Rearranging that will just help the feel of bends and crap.

Both guitars have the same scale, so that isn't effecting tension. Both are FR guitars. With the same strings and such. Both have the same radius. I'm not sure what your problem is, try buying the same gauge but in a different brand. If that fixes your problem, rebuy a set of your old strings.

They might have had a slipup with quality control and sent you a pack of strings from a batch that had different alloy contents.

EDIT:
And to just add to the conversation, this is how my springs are set up: