My afternoon of guitar "techery", full of problems and revelations (5 trem springs).

[Number Of The Priest]

So I bought the D'Addario EXL125 (super tops, regular bottoms) guitar strings to replace the EXL110 (regular 10s) and proceeded to put this new set on my Soloist. I expected the Floyd to dip, so I loosened the trem claw to compensate and bring the Floyd back to a level position. Then it dawned on me that I've been wanting to try five trem springs since last summer, and this is where my problems and revelations started.

I had a four extra trem springs in my parts bin that I thought I'd use. I picked out two at random to add to the ones that are already installed in the trem cavity and put them in the middle-side positions (positions 2 and 4). The Floyd dipped as expected due to the added springs. I loosened the two trem claw screws a large amount and managed to tune to standard and got the Floyd to level out in my usual way.

So, I wanted to wank the Floyd arm to see what the difference was when compared to using just the standard three trem springs. Diving was fine and took a little more muscle, obviously. But pulling up... that's where my problem was. When I pulled up, those two new trem springs slid out of place! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] What I mean is that the loop end of the spring actually shifted out of the claw when pulling up on the bar, and settled back into place when I let go of the bar!

And then it dawned on me. I'm guessing that those trem springs were not compatible with the current trem springs.

So, I ripped out the three "stock" trem springs and installed four of the spare trem springs (I didn't have a fifth of this kind). Still the same problem, only all four of the spring loops now shifted out of the claw. The hell...? [img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img] They're brand new and never used trem springs, so I didn't understand my dilemma. Plus, the trem claw screws were loosened so far out that the claw actually shifted around when pulling up on the trem bar. Screw it. I took off the four new trem springs and put the original three trem springs back on, cranked the claw screws back in, and tuned to standard and leveled the Floyd.

Anyone want to shed some light on the problem of the trem spring loops shifting out of the claw, and the problem of why the claw "wobbled around" when the claw was so far out? Thanks!

[ April 27, 2004, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: Number Of The Priest ]

[Hotrod]

Re: My afternoon of guitar "techery", full of problems and revelations (5 trem springs).

Sounds like the springs are long enough, and the claw is loose (out) enough, that the springs hit the normal "resting" position as you pull up. They no longer have any tension on them when you pull up and then the trem block actualy pushes them backwards a bit. The only thing I could think of would be to try shorter springs or springs with a different tension. Less maybe [img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img] ?

[metafaza]

Re: My afternoon of guitar "techery", full of problems and revelations (5 trem springs).

Yep, shorter springs. I've been thinking about 5 vs. 3 springs, too. I'd have to get some springs first.

[Number Of The Priest]

Re: My afternoon of guitar "techery", full of problems and revelations (5 trem springs).

Hmm, interesting about the shorter spring thing. I didn't know they came in different sizes. I'm kinda thinking that in my situation, with the current bin on spare trem springs that I have now, I won't be able to tune to standard using these light gauge strings and have five trem springs installed. Oh well.

[metafaza]

Re: My afternoon of guitar "techery", full of problems and revelations (5 trem springs).

I wouldn't give my hand for the springs' different sizes. However, somehow I think there are different springs on the market. They are all sold as the 'trem springs', but I think there are two different lengths. I may be completely wrong, though. [img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

[mccullpl]

Re: My afternoon of guitar "techery", full of problems and revelations (5 trem springs).

sounds to me like it's not the spring length, but the tension. if you have 5 springs doing the work instead of 3, each spring will be 'stretched' less, and when you pull back, the springs go back to their normal 'unstretched' length, and start coming off the claw. I think you'll either have to use heavier strings, lighter springs, or less springs. just my $0.02...

[jgcable]

Re: My afternoon of guitar "techery", full of problems and revelations (5 trem springs).

You are using too many springs for a full floating bridge with that gauge of strings. 3 springs is the correct #.

[Sunbane]

Re: My afternoon of guitar "techery", full of problems and revelations (5 trem springs).

Originally posted by toejam:
I've read somewhere that when in the V pattern that the springs can twist and it's not as stable...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'd have to put a big question mark to that statement. Why would the springs twist? They're still just suspended in each end, regardless if they're hooked up in a straight line or diagonally?
[img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

[Immortal]

Re: My afternoon of guitar &quot;techery&quot;, full of problems and revelations (5 trem springs).

Originally posted by toejam:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Dreamland_Rebel:
i have now switched back to 3 springs in standard V pattern

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why the V pattern? I've read somewhere that when in the V pattern that the springs can twist and it's not as stable, but I did that for a little bit and didn't have a problem. I just prefer to use them in the normal up and down pattern anyway. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Even though you use just three for example?

[Dreamland_Rebel]

Re: My afternoon of guitar &quot;techery&quot;, full of problems and revelations (5 trem springs).

i have noticed that when i strum hard, the V pattern acctually holds the trem more stable than the straight accross method.

personnaly the 5 springer does give it a stiffer feel but i found that it does not aid in the tuning stability of hard right hand attack. the 3 V pattern honestly was more stable.

also, little bar nuances are harder with 5 springs. i found its harder to bend with control. like when doing quick bends with a single note down a whole or half step. with 5 i tended to either over bend or under bend the note. but with 3 the bar movements are much smother and easier to control.

one theory i have (this could be totaly wrong but makes sense to me) is that having 5 does make it stiffer, but each spring, in its rest positon, does not have as much tension(as when in 3v), and therefore is more suseptable to minute bending when strumming hard, causing detuned chords. but when dive bombing with the bar, its stiffer becuase you are pushing against more springs (tension).
in the 3v pattern, all 3 spring have more tenion in there rest position. especially the outer 2. and that tension, i beleive, is more even with the strings tension. so when stoked hard it does not give way as easily cause it is already slightly stretched. but apply force from the bar, and the fact that there is les springs makes it easier to move and move more smoothly with more control.

this is just my obsevation over the last 5 years. where i have tested 2 identical guitars, 1 with 5 and 1 with 3v. it is also subject to each players personal feel, style and preference.

try it anyway you want.

on a side note.
alexi from COB uses 3 springs in a different patter. he puts 2 springs straight accross on the high E side. and 1 at an angle from the outer trem block to the 3 or 4 position on the claw(on the low E side). my theory on this is that he likes the tension of the angled spring on the low E side for heavy right hand attack, but enjoys less tension on the high E side for bigger bends. but this theory is one that i have not tested.

guitar is a personal thing with many configurations. try everything you can untill you decide what feels and works best for you.

~JW

[ May 04, 2004, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Dreamland_Rebel ]

[metafaza]

Re: My afternoon of guitar &quot;techery&quot;, full of problems and revelations (5 trem springs).

I've been using XL125 (9-46) for the last 6-7 years. Last weekend I put on XL110 10-46 out of curiosity. So far, I totally can't get used to the different feel they give me. It feels like the overall sound of the guitar became stiffer, too. The difference in thickness isn't that big, but it feels like completely different strings. Anyone had similar impressions? Could I be so used to 9-46s that I'd be able to comfortably play only that gauge?

[toejam]

Re: My afternoon of guitar &quot;techery&quot;, full of problems and revelations (5 trem springs).

Originally posted by Sunbane:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by toejam:
I've read somewhere that when in the V pattern that the springs can twist and it's not as stable...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'd have to put a big question mark to that statement. Why would the springs twist? They're still just suspended in each end, regardless if they're hooked up in a straight line or diagonally?
[img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img] </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't know, didn't make much sense to me either. I either read that somewhere online or maybe in some guitar mag. Something to do with since the springs were at an angle that they had more tendency to twist and cause tuning problems since they weren't straight up and down. I have no idea. [img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img]

[toejam]

Re: My afternoon of guitar &quot;techery&quot;, full of problems and revelations (5 trem springs).

I always used four or five springs on most of my Floyd-equipped guitars in either E, Eb or D tuning (10-46 gauge), never had a problem. Though, on one Dinky Reverse I had, I used five springs and one of the springs would sometimes pop out if I pulled back on the bar. That used to piss me off and I could never figure it out! All springs were the same size.
I used 11-48 on my Warrior in D tuning, had three springs on at first, went to four, then five, never had a problem whatsoever. I eventually went back to four springs because that's what felt best on that guitar.

[Hotrod]

Re: My afternoon of guitar &quot;techery&quot;, full of problems and revelations (5 trem springs).

[img]graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img] All of these "you're using too many springs" comments still don't even begin to address the issue of why only two springs pushed back on the trem claw when the others didn't. No matter how many springs you have on there (too many or not), they should all respond equally unless they are of different tension or length, period.

[Dreamland_Rebel]

Re: My afternoon of guitar &quot;techery&quot;, full of problems and revelations (5 trem springs).

i went through the 5 instead of 3 phase for a few year and have just recently came out of it.

the extra tension of 5 springs misguided my judgement to think that it would help with heavy right handed strums that seemed to dip out of tune sometimes. in actuallity it made it worse.

just too much tension. when i'd press hard on a fretted string i could actually see the trem lift up a hair. see the tension being "tighter" made the action/reaction of the string have more barring on the tuning.

i have now switched back to 3 springs in standard V pattern, and have found that the trem stays in its posisition better and makes using the bar easier and more precise. with 3 springs the tension is ballanced just right between strings and springs.