Got a 2009 Challenger RT

[Fender]

Though .. for what it's worth .. numbers like that are ok on paper.. and on a track. but in the real world, there is no way in hell you can justify that kind of car.. let alone use it every day.
as a personal car, i prefer a nimble little hatchback, like the fiesta or clio. close to 200 horsepower, so it's got enough grunt to be fun, yet not as much that you'd need to fill it up every 500 yards. and they're fun through corners and useable EVERYWHERE

Yeah, but you live in Europe man. You guys don't get it. Are gas isn't that bad, but the guys in the US still complain for 2.90 $ per gallon. Where i like in Canada, it's about 1.03$ per liter near my house. Which would be 3.90$ a gallon in the states. It cost me about 50 to 60 to fill my mustang depending on if the gas prices stick to 95-99 cents or 1.05-1.10 a liter. If i was living in the US it would cost me 76cents to a liter which is ridiculously cheap.

Except for 2 or 3 months last year because of freak gas drop, the prices haven't been this low since i was about 9 or 10 years old. That was a decade and more ago. At that price it would cost me 35-40 bucks to fill up and with a full tank i can do about 350-400KM's and sometimes more. 350 was work mileage. Back and forth to work 4 days with traffic and stopping at restaurants and going out a bit. It would cost me about 55-65$ dollars a week last year. Since then i bought a second car to drive to work since i want to keep the mileage on my new drivetrain and engine low. It's at 49 000 miles, so she's still young and i wanna keep her that way.

Anyways i don't give GM a bad reputation either because they build muscle cars and i love them. It's amazing that this breed is still alive, but it's all thanks to the Mustang. Corvettes were still sold throughout then, but not everyone could afford one. Mustang's have always been pretty affordable and thus kept it alive. Camaros and Firebirds died for a while and then came back and now that all three big guys are making muscle, we should rejoice because it's like us reliving a part of the early us glory years of car manufacturing and partying . Nothing says i like to party like doing donuts in a parking like a moron at midnight with your buddies. Well maybe a mullet says party, but it's also says business up front!

[gmbob22]

The GM crowd just can't admit they got owned by a Shelby is the bottom line. And btw, that 550 hp is the starting point only. Owners are getting over 700 rear wheel hp by upping the boost and aftermarket headers with the proper dyno tune. And doing it reliably I might add. The GM LS motors can make power too and many add nitrous or blowers anyway but their reliability at the drag strip has not been on par with the 4 valve Mod Motors. The Shelby is the best bang for the buck going!

I hate to disagree, but i have seen MANY mod motors go to PIECES because of a weak bottom end and the complicated valvetrain, the STOCK supercharged mod motor does not suffer from the bottom end failures as do the others, because they get a FORGED crank rods and pistons

have not seen a single blown up LS1, and people are making 600hp easy with pump gas normally aspirated LSX series engines, i have not seen a SINGLE mod motor that didnt need a blower or nitrous to get the power levels the LSX engines are making without it

[gmbob22]

I hate to disagree, but i have seen MANY mod motors go to PIECES because of a weak bottom end and the complicated valvetrain, the STOCK supercharged mod motor does not suffer from the bottom end failures as do the others, because they get a FORGED crank rods and pistons

have not seen a single blown up LS1, and people are making 600hp easy with pump gas normally aspirated LSX series engines, i have not seen a SINGLE mod motor that didnt need a blower or nitrous to get the power levels the LSX engines are making without it

shelby best bang for the buck going???? i think not, in stock form the ZO6 does everything better than the shelby

its my opinion at least, and ill never be able to afford either

[gmbob22]

F/I like stuffing a bra? What are you so hung up on GM products that you can't respect ingenuity and modern engineering. What are you going to argue with the guys that beat SS Camaro's and Z06's all day long with their Mitsubishi Evo's and Subaru STI's? What they're ''cheating'' because their cars have more camshafts then yours? I guess you could say they ''stuff their crotches'' with superior engineering, but at the end of the day it's not going to matter when the guy in his brand spanking new Z06 got his shit handed to him by some 25 year old asshole, who bought an STI because he's still living out of his folk's garage for free.

On the other hand, what GM has done is take a Jurassic engine and keep it alive on life support. Expensive life support. I am not going to argue that it's pretty effective, but how long can they keep that going until they have no choice to actually design a new engine to start replacing their refurbished engines. It's kind of like Madonna, you could never tell she's 51, but it's gonna be obvious in 5-15 years hehe. Ford's last super car was far more impressive. Remember ol' doctor Ford GT. That thing ate Ferrari's for breakfast on a track and could still get a nice quarter mile of 11.2 for a car specifically geared towards professional touring racing. What's funny is that typically sell used for about 10-20 grand over MSRP these days since they were produced in such short numbers. I don't love one brand more than another. If i have a lot of Ford cars it's because my Dad has been working for about 20 years there and i can get a lot of maintenance, parts and cars for really cheap. If i had a choice, I'd personally still keep my Mustang, but i do love the old LT1/LS1 F-bodies a lot and if i had the dough, I'd have a nice T-top Trans am. Anyways I've never seen anyone so sentimental about a brand of friggin cars. If you love GM so much, why don't you marry them :ROTF:?

do some research the modern GM LS small block, may be SIMILAR in design as the old Gen I and II small blocks in that it is a PUSHROD engine, but thats about it, completely redesigned block, heads, etc. etc. etc.

im sorry that chevy doesnt need to use the fancy DOHC 4 valve per cylinder bs to MAKE MORE POWER FOR MUCH LESS $$$$

[gmbob22]

F/I like stuffing a bra? What are you so hung up on GM products that you can't respect ingenuity and modern engineering. What are you going to argue with the guys that beat SS Camaro's and Z06's all day long with their Mitsubishi Evo's and Subaru STI's? What they're ''cheating'' because their cars have more camshafts then yours? I guess you could say they ''stuff their crotches'' with superior engineering, but at the end of the day it's not going to matter when the guy in his brand spanking new Z06 got his shit handed to him by some 25 year old asshole, who bought an STI because he's still living out of his folk's garage for free.

On the other hand, what GM has done is take a Jurassic engine and keep it alive on life support. Expensive life support. I am not going to argue that it's pretty effective, but how long can they keep that going until they have no choice to actually design a new engine to start replacing their refurbished engines. It's kind of like Madonna, you could never tell she's 51, but it's gonna be obvious in 5-15 years hehe. Ford's last super car was far more impressive. Remember ol' doctor Ford GT. That thing ate Ferrari's for breakfast on a track and could still get a nice quarter mile of 11.2 for a car specifically geared towards professional touring racing. What's funny is that typically sell used for about 10-20 grand over MSRP these days since they were produced in such short numbers. I don't love one brand more than another. If i have a lot of Ford cars it's because my Dad has been working for about 20 years there and i can get a lot of maintenance, parts and cars for really cheap. If i had a choice, I'd personally still keep my Mustang, but i do love the old LT1/LS1 F-bodies a lot and if i had the dough, I'd have a nice T-top Trans am. Anyways I've never seen anyone so sentimental about a brand of friggin cars. If you love GM so much, why don't you marry them :ROTF:?

no there cheating cause most of them are forcing 20+ psi of air into the cylinders,

i wonder what a LS engine would do with a HUGE intercooled turbo and 20+ lbs of boost, what about in a HEAVY assed trailblazer???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeXatsRABIA

and the 900rwhp supercharged 2010 camaro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGxe4ip8Doo&feature=related

thats bugati veryon kinda power territory with less cylinders, and only A roots stlye supercharger, not qaud turbo bs, (not taking anything away from the veryon but i think a well built late model LSX vette can be built to be just as fast for FAR less $$$, just not as sophisticated)

and i doubt ANYONE owns a new STI living in there parents garage, not exactly cheap, or maybe they do, CAUSE THEY LIVE IN A GARAGE

[Fender]

do some research the modern GM LS small block, may be SIMILAR in design as the old Gen I and II small blocks in that it is a PUSHROD engine, but thats about it, completely redesigned block, heads, etc. etc. etc.

im sorry that chevy doesnt need to use the fancy DOHC 4 valve per cylinder bs to MAKE MORE POWER FOR MUCH LESS $$$$

If they did, the rest of the world would probably take our cars seriously. GM makes most of the US cars look like morons. Imagine how much more their cars could compete if they made their engines cammers and used independent suspension. We could actually compete in europe without using a car that is soo modified the only thing it has in common with the original is that it has 4 wheels.

Also It's not about making more power for less money, if anything dohc technology is a lot more expensive than doing the same engine over and over. In the end is more power per displacement units. You know it's not because you put a dress and make up on an old fat chick that she is any different. LSx engines are still dinosaur 350 engines even if they increase the stroke and bore and add little ribs along the engine block to support the extra power. Again, they are totally impressive when you look back and see most companies have modernized their engines, but stop taking this crap personally. You're acting as though i called your mom a whore lol.

[Hellbat]

Remember ol' doctor Ford GT. That thing ate Ferrari's for breakfast on a track and could still get a nice quarter mile of 11.2 for a car specifically geared towards professional touring racing. What's funny is that typically sell used for about 10-20 grand over MSRP these days since they were produced in such short numbers.

The Ford GT also got around 8MPG and had around a 110 mile range on a full tank of gas.

[gmbob22]

If they did, the rest of the world would probably take our cars seriously. GM makes most of the US cars look like morons. Imagine how much more their cars could compete if they made their engines cammers and used independent suspension. We could actually compete in europe without using a car that is soo modified the only thing it has in common with the original is that it has 4 wheels.

Also It's not about making more power for less money, if anything dohc technology is a lot more expensive than doing the same engine over and over. In the end is more power per displacement units. You know it's not because you put a dress and make up on an old fat chick that she is any different. LSx engines are still dinosaur 350 engines even if they increase the stroke and bore and add little ribs along the engine block to support the extra power. Again, they are totally impressive when you look back and see most companies have modernized their engines, but stop taking this crap personally. You're acting as though i called your mom a whore lol.

and the ford cammer is just a updated version of the SOHC 427 from the 60's by this kinda logic, wouldnt that make them dinosaurs as well?

and since when, in all of the hot rodding racing world has it not been about making more power for less money? i would call that EFFICIENT especially since its NOT DOHC, heck, in my mind i would think maybe the old pushrod technology is BETTER

anway im going to stop whoring the thread up, on the dodge subject

this thing is very nice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxAmLrW_VmY

[Fender]

and the ford cammer is just a updated version of the SOHC 427 from the 60's by this kinda logic, wouldnt that make them dinosaurs as well?

and since when, in all of the hot rodding racing world has it not been about making more power for less money? i would call that EFFICIENT especially since its NOT DOHC, heck, in my mind i would think maybe the old pushrod technology is BETTER

anway im going to stop whoring the thread up, on the dodge subject

this thing is very nice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxAmLrW_VmY

Yes thank you for stopping being a whore lol

[roodyrocker]

no there cheating cause most of them are forcing 20+ psi of air into the cylinders,

i wonder what a LS engine would do with a HUGE intercooled turbo and 20+ lbs of boost, what about in a HEAVY assed trailblazer???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeXatsRABIA

and the 900rwhp supercharged 2010 camaro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGxe4ip8Doo&feature=related

thats bugati veryon kinda power territory with less cylinders, and only A roots stlye supercharger, not qaud turbo bs, (not taking anything away from the veryon but i think a well built late model LSX vette can be built to be just as fast for FAR less $$$, just not as sophisticated)

and i doubt ANYONE owns a new STI living in there parents garage, not exactly cheap, or maybe they do, CAUSE THEY LIVE IN A GARAGE

O.K. now you are getting into the extraordinary not ordinary realm of Mod and LS motors. If you think 900+ hp is easily attainable in either while still retaining good street reliabilty you probably don't know much about hot rods But seriously, if you want to play that game how about Steve Matuzsek's Mustang? Runs in NMCA Pro Street on a Mod Motor where mid 6's at 220 mph is the norm. Point is, for the average enthusiast its easier and cheaper to make the power with a blown Shelby than a N/A LS. And lets not fool ourselves, plenty of LS owners are going the nitrous/turbo/blower route. I don't think they're "cheating". And the Vette, well it costs more than the Shelby to begin with. Again bang for the buck, its Shelby GT500 all the way!

[CKJ]

F/I like stuffing a bra? What are you so hung up on GM products that you can't respect ingenuity and modern engineering. What are you going to argue with the guys that beat SS Camaro's and Z06's all day long with their Mitsubishi Evo's and Subaru STI's? What they're ''cheating'' because their cars have more camshafts then yours? I guess you could say they ''stuff their crotches'' with superior engineering, but at the end of the day it's not going to matter when the guy in his brand spanking new Z06 got his shit handed to him by some 25 year old asshole, who bought an STI because he's still living out of his folk's garage for free.

On the other hand, what GM has done is take a Jurassic engine and keep it alive on life support. Expensive life support. I am not going to argue that it's pretty effective, but how long can they keep that going until they have no choice to actually design a new engine to start replacing their refurbished engines. It's kind of like Madonna, you could never tell she's 51, but it's gonna be obvious in 5-15 years hehe. Ford's last super car was far more impressive. Remember ol' doctor Ford GT. That thing ate Ferrari's for breakfast on a track and could still get a nice quarter mile of 11.2 for a car specifically geared towards professional touring racing. What's funny is that typically sell used for about 10-20 grand over MSRP these days since they were produced in such short numbers. I don't love one brand more than another. If i have a lot of Ford cars it's because my Dad has been working for about 20 years there and i can get a lot of maintenance, parts and cars for really cheap. If i had a choice, I'd personally still keep my Mustang, but i do love the old LT1/LS1 F-bodies a lot and if i had the dough, I'd have a nice T-top Trans am. Anyways I've never seen anyone so sentimental about a brand of friggin cars. If you love GM so much, why don't you marry them :ROTF:?

If you know the basics of drag racing is always about power to weight. If you have a high power to weight ratio then your car is going to f'n fly. Its easy for say a 300 hp 3000 lb car to give a 450 hp 3500 lb car a fit. If a Evo is pushing 20 lbs of boost into the intake, intake runner & combustion chamber and turning 8K rpms thats A SHIT LOAD of air moving throughout that motor. The whole key to hp is who can move the most air at the fastest rate of speed in a given time. An engine is like a vacuum cleaner, the more air you move through it, the better it will perform. That is the key advantage the import crowd has. The small bore & stroke and turning that many rpms. But even at the end of the day of imports running whatever times they decide to run.. do you really feel like a man with a huge pair of balls with that sound coming from the car? I needs muh rumble.

Stock for stock, there is nothing...NOTHING like a NA LSx running .2-.3 slower than the highly praised GT500 for 10K less in cash.

Ford GT.. When will Ford actually try to do something thats fair to compete with the Vettes. A car with probably a 10 year waiting list vs. a car made everyday

The OHV motor is tried and true, its not Jurassic its just that everybody has given up on them where GM were the only ones to make a phenomenal engine such as the LTx and LSx platform. Others are just trying to piss in a coffee can in the wind.. yeah they're hitting it sometimes but GM its spot on and is getting better and better with time. TPI < LT1 < LT4 < LS1 < LS6 < LS2 < LS3 < LS7 < LS9

How many different tranny bolt patters does ford have? Gm... from like the early 60's till present day its still the same on the SBC's. No BS of "Oh..this 351 won't bolt up to this C4, it has to bolt up to a C6, oh wait n/m I thought you were talking about this 351 so it'll work" Complete and udder nonsense. You can take a LSx, bolt a TH400 up to it, a TH700, TH200, T56, T5 whatever you want as long as you have the right flexplate or flywheel combination.

I'll leave the thread be for now, but one day you will see who always reign superior in the end. Then that little :idea: will turn.

BTW: how many SBF or SBD stock casting heads can flow 365 cfm below .700 lift? LS3..all day everyday.

[roodyrocker]

Man, this is really getting the GM crowd worked up The $10K difference in price from a Shelby buys you more than .2-.3 second ET difference. If you decide to supercharge your LS powered machine, how much will the basic blower kit cost you? If you need to go to your local friendly GM Performance Parts counter guy and order up a fancy LSx block how much does that cost, and add in the cost of rebuilding? That $10K just got ate up really quickly. In the meantime the Ford guy hasn't had to crack the motor open!
As far as what bolts up to what, its not us Ford and Chrysler guys fault that we're smart enough to know what fits Anyway, if you really do have a fast GM Musclecar chances are you're using a Ford 9" rear end behind it! :ROTF:
In the 60's the Cobras and GT 40's mopped up the track and streets with Vettes and more recently the new GT40 and Viper did the same. The new Vette is O.K. but I'd rather be in a Viper or GT 40 any day.
The imports, well sure some are fast but they are not the rule. Most of them if fast enough end up self destructing in short order. I don't even think about them.
I could care less what the LS heads flow numbers are, its like racing dynos. I know what I see at the track

[fordsho90]

Well since we have gone this route with the super car and the GT500 Ford bois, then its time to show the GM some love.

How about the Cadillac CTS-V Sedan 556HP 551ftp-tq 0-60 in 3.9 1/4 mile 12.0 from a production car with a real back seat, four doors and that Caddy luxury and ride. Not to shabby for a Luxury sedan topping 4200 pounds

A coupe and a wagon with the same powertrain options to be released later this year. So for you Nancys that said the GM motor with its (GASP) pushrods is an out of date....Suck on that for a bit

[gmbob22]

O.K. now you are getting into the extraordinary not ordinary realm of Mod and LS motors. If you think 900+ hp is easily attainable in either while still retaining good street reliabilty you probably don't know much about hot rods But seriously, if you want to play that game how about Steve Matuzsek's Mustang? Runs in NMCA Pro Street on a Mod Motor where mid 6's at 220 mph is the norm. Point is, for the average enthusiast its easier and cheaper to make the power with a blown Shelby than a N/A LS. And lets not fool ourselves, plenty of LS owners are going the nitrous/turbo/blower route. I don't think they're "cheating". And the Vette, well it costs more than the Shelby to begin with. Again bang for the buck, its Shelby GT500 all the way!

actually, i do think a 900hp lsx engine could be more than reliable, and streetable, plenty of 600-700hp lsx street engines out there on PUMP gas N/A, so yeah with forced induction, i think its more than possible

and the shelby makes what, 550hp stock? with a 5.4 dohc with an eaton on top yeah you can up the boost etc. etc. etc.

i think honestyl the shelby is an effin pig 4000lbs vs. the corvettes 3200, its heavy as hell, i dont think one would fair to well against the regular 430hp LS3 vette, which post similar 0-60 and 1/4 mile times with 120 less hp

actually i do know QUITE alot about hot rods, and you know the old saying about every 100lbs of weight loss is like picking up 10 hp, so if you figure that in, power to weight of a STOCK C6 vette, and a STOCK GT500 are about the same, and i bet the vette still handles and stops better than the gt500, at the end of the day, its just a fast mustang and not up to a stock vette

how many LS1's are makin 550hp on 346 cubic inches with ONLY CHANGING HEADS AND CAM??? very many, (factory GM casting heads at that)

how many 550hp mod motors out there n/a, with stock casting heads and a cam change??
i dunno know of any, not saying they dont exist

never really will agree with this ford vs. chevy thing, but chevy guys have been going FASTER, CHEAPER for MANY YEARS and it doesnt look like its going to change

thinking about it, i have NEVER seen a GM vehicle with a FORD powerplant swapped in, but people been putting smallblock chevy's in fords since the 50's

and when i refer the the LSX, im refering to the entire LS engine series, as the X represents a rpo code number, remember in math, X is a variable

im not refering the the fancy LSX race block, LOTS of people are going VERY fast with stock blocks and heads

and an intercooled procharger system for the LS3 vette runs about $6500, but is a bolt on 620hp, thats ZR1 territory pretty cheaply

also the viper is a HEAVY pos that makes the same power as ZO6 but takes 2 extra cylinders to do it, and i dont remember it Wiping the streets of vettes, nor the overpriced uber expensive GT40, infact id like to see a GT40 vs. ZR1 comparson, but i alread know who would win that one

and Yes the shelby cobra of old out ran the vette, but weighed less and had the 427 side oiler "cammer' of old, power to weight, which is EXACTLY, why new vettes walk all over the gt500

[roodyrocker]

Again, the Vette costs much more than the Shelby and the two are not truly each others intended audience. The Shelby and Mustang are Ford's entry against the Challenger and Camaro. You know the Ponycars. The Vette is not a Ponycar. And yes, the Shelby is heavy but it goes fast despite that.
Its funny how anything Ford or Chrysler does is unfair. Blower, 2 extra cylinders, whatever. Bottom line is however you want to look at it the current bar is set by the Shelby as far as Ponycars go. Are there 900+ hp LS cars out on the streets? Sure there are but again, thats not the norm. The only places I see such cars is at the NMCA Finals each year where the LSX Shootout is held. Thats where you will see the baddest LS powered cars. But those are not the cars I see on most streets or local drag strips. OTOH, I have seen 4.6L blown Cobras with better than 600+ rwhp and thats not even the Shelby 5.4L. Changing heads and cam on an LS motor is basically redoing the top half of your motor. Those heads have a GM part number and are sold through GM but they are not factory stock. In the meantime like I said before the guy with the Shelby hasn't cracked anything open on his motor yet. Simply swap a pulley, better exhaust and a tune and you're ready to burn rubber. $6500 for your Procharger is just the begining. Anytime you start bolting these things on you quickly find out how much more you need to spend in beefing up lots of other parts. Went through that with my own Mustang by "bolting on" a Vortech blower. Ford did their homework on the Shelby but the GM guys never want to admit it.
BTW, as a historical point the side oiler 427 is not necessarily the Cammer. Depending on what year Cobra you get you may have a side oiler or a center oiler. These have nothing to do with whether its a Cammer or not. The 427 SOHC motor was known as the Cammer and was not factory installed in the 60's Ford Musclecars. It was originally intended to be Ford's answer to the Chrysler 426 Hemi for NASCAR use. NASCAR said no to both of them so Ford used the motor for all sorts of motorsports, mainly drag racing, by selling the motor over the counter. The side vs. center oiler has to do with the way the oiling system is routed. To confuse the GM guys even more there are 427 low, medium, and high risers which has to do with the heads
In the end, drive/race what you want. Just don't be so quick to discount the competition