Question for the electrically inclined..

[Vass]

So I bought a house! Yay, here we go, nice place, etc. Pretty old, but in good shape, decent upgrades....but electric really doesn't seem to be one. I plan on upping the house current from 100 amp to oh, 200 if possible, less if not. What's really bugging me, however, is this: Federal Pacific box, sitting before the breaker. House has 100 amp service, and there is, in addition to this and the main panel, a sub panel in the back for some of the heavier appliances.... 2 separate issues, one, wtf is with this thing, and two, I really feel like the previous owners were stretching the service with the sub panel...I am no expert, not even close, but it doesn't seem ideal...



Old school fuse blocks...



Model info...



And an old 100a/250w fuse sitting on top since before the Korean War.



I want to get rid of it, but, like anything else, we have our priorities. I am ***NOT*** doing it myself. Just looking for, first of all, an answer to "WTF do I call this thing when I call the electrician so he knows what he's dealing with"...saves him a trip. TWO, can I just cut it out of the current set up, get a new panel, and get PSEG (our local) to up the line outside without it costing me a million bucks?

And most importantly, how much of a shit show is this thing? Would you put your loved ones in a house with that thing active or do I need to get it out? I have a few weeks before I move in anyway, so if it needs to go fast, it's going. I know FPE had problems with breaker boxes, but this obviously way pre-dates that.

And if it's ok to leave, where in the world do I find fuses for this sucker? Eh, if it's only 100 I guess it's gotta go anyway if I upgrade, but just thinking in the interim, if it isn't going to set the house on fire....

Thanks in advance guys.

[etepbbb]

Its just a fuse box, it looks like its protecting your breaker box. Why is it there? Probaby a throw back to some of the original wiring, I would think it would been removed if the breaker box had a main breaker. If there is a main breaker, it may have been left there just keep the job cheaper for some reason, maybe just keeping it as a junction box tying together the old and new. The wires coming from right look like old cloth covered wiring, which can be a problem because the cloth rots over time and if it get disturbed will just fall right off, obviously causing problems with short-circuits. The wires coming out of the left peice of conduit looks like modern THHN wires.

If you install a new box, it would have a main breaker inside and this would go away. As for cost, hold on to your checkbook, it could be really expensive. It all the depends on what will be required to do the job. Some are just easier then others, also where you live, will impact the cost of electrical workers as well. Depending on what you have done, some codes require bringing a stucture completely up to modern standards once you redo a certain % of the existing work. That would obviously add cost.

My suggestion is to have a couple electrical contractors out for quotes, they'll be able tell you whats wrong, and if theres some sort of immediate danger. Also, they'll able to find new fuses that have the proper trip curve to replace the old ones if needed. If you have a few weeks before moving, talk the current owners into allowing you to have a contractors in to inspect it and quote it. Then you'll sleep at night once your there.

[stevieb91]

Most likely the fuses were pulled to disconnect from the main so they did not have to have the electric company shut the power off before installing the new panel box.. Here, the power company has to make upgrades on the pole to improve to 200 amp service, so if you have an electrician give you an estimate, they should be able to tell you if you have to there..

I do know 2 guys I work with that had to have their 100 amp breaker boxes replaced, not sure of how much rewiring was done, and they payed $1200 and $1400 for what they needed done, but again pricing varies regionally... Just make sure your contractor is licensed and insured...

[fordsho90]

Well first of all congrats on getting a new home, didnt you get a home inspection before you purchesed? if so it should have given you a heads up as to the electrical issues that your sharing with us; ALWAYS get a home inspection.

Anyway, to answer your ?'s, take a look at the old wire in you main panel and see if it is in good shape, if you dont see any freying or burnt stuff on the old cloth wiring then it will be safe till you decide to upgrade, so there should be no worries; just dont touch the old wires or the shit might fall apart in your hands (the cloth sheething).


Now whats already been said, the fuse box in your picts. looks to be a main fuse for your panel and if and when you upgrade it will be gone and it will be piped straight to your main panel from the load side of the meter so that is no worries.


Now as far as your concern w/sub panel, if it really bothers you go buy your self an amp probe and turn all the stuff on that is run off sub and take a reading at the main where the sub is fed from and that will tell you how many amps your sub is pulling worst case, hell you can do it for the whole house to see if you are macking out on your amps as a whole.

Now as far as costs, since your upgrading and not updating it is gonna cost more to do the job, so it isnt fair to give you a ballpark figure w/out seeing the whole job first. Now may I make a suggestion to you? Before you embark on this venture make sure that you need a 200 amp service, I have a 3500 sq ft home and I updated mine w/200 amp service from an old school 100 amp service and I dont even come close to using even a 100 amps, now had I needed to pay for it I never would have upgraded it just updated the panel to a newer one w/more breaker slots then the old one that was on the house. But since I did all the work myself and had all of the materials including the panel the only thing it cost me was a few hours of my time.

If your stuff is in good shape and you have balanced power (gas/propane-and electric) but you feel you need more space you can always just get a more modern panel w/more space which will be alot cheaper then going up in amps, that should cost you around 600 bucks to get a new panel installed. Hope this helps and if you have any more ?'s feel free to ask.

Oh to answer your ? on where to get fuses, call around to local hardware stores (mom and pop type places) they might actually carry them due to the older area that you live in, if not find a electrical supplier and give the a buzz and if the dont have it they will be able to get for you; and get yourself a fuse puller for safety!!

[rjohnstone]

Man that's some old hardware for sure.
Today many panels are all-in-one. The main breaker and the service breakers are all in the same panel.

As stated by others, going to 200 amps requires a lot of pre-work and a thorough inspection of the existing wiring.
Also, make sure you can even get 200 amp service from your electric company.

I would suggest at minimum you get the existing 100 amp service panel updated top modern panel with GFCI breakers for those circuits that feed kitchen and bath areas.
I'm not talking about adding GFCI sockets, but actual GFCI breakers. These babies will save your ass, and house, if the socket fails to trip.

I had a panel catch on fire because of a failed GFCI socket. Not fun (or cheap) to fix.

I had one of these 200 amp Square D panels installed a couple of years ago to replace the 30 your old fire hazard that was on my house.
The panels are cheap... under $200 with breakers.


The labor and permit to have one installed is another matter.

[Rsmacker]

where in the world do I find fuses for this sucker?

Just use a bolt.








Um, no, don't do that, it would be a very silly thing to do. Try E-bay, I've off-loaded loads of old shite consumer units, cartridge fuses, stab-lok breakers etc etc, as well as actually buying the odd completely prehistoric thing here or there to get me out of the shit. It beats lobbing it all in a skip, which is what I used to do!

Why not get 3-phase installed, then you can really push the boat out, get some massive lathes and compressors going! Pffft, 100A single phase is girls' electricity.

[Vass]

Thanks fellas- extremely helpful. Main reason I want to up the amps is because we've got some other work to do, and if circuits need to be upgraded for future plans I'd rather do it now than later. I'll likely be putting a split mini AC in at some point & I'm probably going to convert the detached garage into either a studio for me or a studio for my wife. Basement's getting done too and whoever doesn't get the garage studio is getting the basement (that's me I am sure).

The inspector took one look at the box and basically said what you guys are saying- Not the end of the world but you'll want to get rid of it. One thing that I want to be clear on is exactly what was done on a very nice bathroom upgrade- It looks pretty, but the previous owner's father did the electrical work, supposedly off permit, so never got inspected, and he threw a bunch of funky shit in there. Want to have that looked at as well.

Also the circuits are labeled in ways that make no sense, so it's tough to tell what's on what. Want that mapped & good to go.

I got a guy coming out, if anyone's interested I'll update the thread with his comments.

[fordsho90]

Please do

[Rsmacker]

Best time to get your sparky in to do the inspection is right now, if the place is empty. A Periodic Inspection Report, as it's called in the UK, can be a pain in the arse if the building's in use, but a piece of piss if empty. You'll end up knowing exactly how many points are on each circuit, what size conductors are installed, prospective fault current, and the really important ones, your insulation resistance (ie. that your cables aren't degraded or perished, therefore are safe) and your earth fault loop (ie. that your breakers will trip within the given time limits in the event of a fault).
So many times I have visited houses three months after someone has moved in and there's a problem, the previous occupant was a mad professor who has added bits all over, and the place really needs to be re-wired. Unfortunately, the price goes up 300% if the house is occupied, and that's if I can be arsed to do the work, the guys who work for me find them too much hassle and don't want to get involved in shifting furniture and belongings from one side of the house to the other.

If it's a proper inspection (ie. with metered, measured tests like I said above, not just him coming round and looking at it, tutting and drawing his breath in sharply) your sparky's inspection will be worth every penny.

[RacerX]

Interesting thread! BTW the company I work for makes the metal cutting machines that Square D used to cut the panels for this:

I had one of these 200 amp Square D panels installed a couple of years ago to replace the 30 your old fire hazard that was on my house.
The panels are cheap... under $200 with breakers.