Handgun gurus: Need some input

[SEEGERMANY]

That's great. I can read that stuff all day long. But the fact is, I've shot my Judge many times. From #6 Shot all the way down the list, including slugs. This gun was designed for close range action. Personally, from 5 yards out to seven yards, this gun is devastating. Laugh all you want, no skin off my nuts.

Bill, that Winchester ammo comes 10 .410 shells and 10 .45 Colt rounds to a box, not five. Sorry.

You know, reading stuff on the Internet, especially these days, it seems everyone is an expert. No matter what the subject. Personally, I may use the info as a guide, but when the time comes, it's got to be hands on experience for me. DRM has probably shot more different types of weapons than I can possibly dream of. So far, his advice on handguns has been spot on. But he's not the cat that's gonna be holding the grip of your gun. Use his advice, as well as mine, as a guide and then make up your own mind. Just don't let your girlfriend shoot you with a Judge. It's gonna hurt!

[DRM]

This gun was designed for close range action. Personally, from 5 yards out to seven yards, this gun is devastating. Laugh all you want, no skin off my nuts.

It was designed to shoot snakes with birdshot from a boat. Then some Billy Ray Bastard decided that "shotgun-pistols" were the greatest thing ever, marketed it as some INSANELY powerful weapon, and the rest is gun store history. .410 is a pathetic self-defense round to begin with when it's in a full-length shotgun barrel. Put it in a pistol and suddenly the world is freaking out. It performs patheticly as a shotgun, and in a pistol, it's downright useless. .410 from a 4" barrel can NOT penetrate even a jacket at 10 yards.

The average CQB shooting occurs between 25 and 35 feet. I've seen it go from the extreme of taking 9 rounds from an M4 to only 2 to put someone down and my buddies who are LEO's have similar experiences using their .40 S&W's. Here's a link to the performance of 180gr Winchester Ranger .40 S&W from a 3.5" barreled pistol... http://www.firearmstactical.com/test...80rsxt-g27.htm The .410 wouldn't have even penetrated let alone have performed any damage to the organs which, contrary to Hollywood, is what actually kills you, not the entry wound or the size of it. I've got some great pics of dead guys where some of them were shot with a single round from an M4 at 400m and dropped and others who were alive after taking a .50 APIT round to the stomach at 200m. Bullets do crazy shit the second they leave the barrel, but why gamble with something that is a proven non-performer? I don't give a shit what bubba at the gun store says. He's an idiot. If you want real-world advice from people who do this for a living, google the Lightfighter forum and just read.

Sorry, but recommending anyone to use a .410 pistol in self-defense is asinine. As an avid shooter as well as someone who depends on gunfighting to survive, I'm obligated to present the facts. There are great resources out there to study the terminal ballistics of various loads of ammo and their performance in the FBI gel tests. Those are the international standard and you would be a fool not to want to use the best tool at your disposal.

You want a pistol? Go with a proven performer. You want a shotgun? Go with a proven performer. Don't put your life in the hands of the bastard-child of both. The fact that there are thousands of professional shooters who advise against the use of a .410 *ever* is what some of us call "a clue".

I'll go back to my lane now.

[Rsmacker]

I hate to interfere here, there's nothing quite like a British Gentleman commenting on Yank cowboy gun threads, is there? Anyway, here in the civilised world, a .410 shotgun is known as a "Garden Gun" *(because they are shit). They are (or rather, were) great for sawing the barrel off, then sticking in the inside pocket of your jacket. It's quite a feeling, going into a boozer, having a row with some dickhead, then going all Guy Ritchie, pulling out a shooter shouting "Get dahn, yooo facking slaaaaags!".

Ahem, I mean, I imagine it would be, I couldn't possibly comment.
(This was in the Good Old Days. Today you'd get Lewis fucking Collins abseiling through your lounge window at 7am, followed by a 5 year minimum sentence, for simply owning a unlicensed gun, let alone waving it around in the pub)

Sorry, just thought I'd share that with you. Carry on wanking...

*Edit. Dammit, I'm wrong, a Garden Gun is a 9mm shotgun that can be folded up. Ah, fuck it, they both look the same when some piss-head is waving them about in the pub.

[RacerX]

.410 from a 4" barrel can NOT penetrate even a jacket at 10 yards.

Yah, but I bet the wearer of said jacket would get quite a fright!





For maybe 5 seconds

[Axegrinder87]

Putting flame suit on....

The 9mm cartridge has the best ballistics, as well as optimal penetration.

"Knockdown power" is a silly myth.

The 9mm is the best round for dispatching would-be dispatchers. Also helps to know that I have 20 of them in the palm of my hand, for ease of mind.

They're easier to shoot, as well as much cheaper to plink/practice with.

Old timers, and brainwashed youth alike, herald the .45 for its "power". Unfortunately, its penetration characteristics are less that optimal. Penetrating to vital organs is the name of the game, otherwise they'll just be left bleeding on the ground.

If you carry for defense, but don't want to kill, then you may as well leave it at home.

[horns666]

I shot some fuck 3 times in the inner thigh with my S&W service 9mm...all he got was a limp. But at least I stopped him shooting at me. I'd rather nailed him with a .410..because he'd prolly be sans genitalia.

BTW over 90 rounds were exchange..good times.

...fuggums.

[Number Of The Priest]

DRM has probably shot more different types of weapons than I can possibly dream of.

Canadian occasional shooter here who first shot in America. I remember the look of horror, during my first session back in my home country, the range officer gave me when I casually referred to it as a "weapon". Canadians.

Guns are typically twice as expensive in Canada compared to in the USA. No carry here either, nor self-defense/home-defense as legal reasons for ownership. All handguns are restricted to ten rounds, and while it's in your car with you, you have to either be driving to the range/competition or coming home from the range/competition. No automatics unless you inherited one, and only then can you keep it in working condition. All centerfire, semi-auto rifles are limited to five rounds except the M1 Garand and I think the Lee Enfield (both for historical reasons, supposedly). No restriction on capacity for rimfire rifles or any other type of "slower" action.

Partway through "Boston's Gun Bible" by Boston T. Party (real name Kenneth W. Royce) and will finish it before making a purchase into yet another expensive interest/hobby. Massive (800+ pages) and information/statistics-dense book but an easy read. If you want the gist of it, he recommends (and backs up with numbers) the M1A pretty much as the be-all, end-all, although previous editions of the book had the FN FAL as his top choice (also backed up with numbers). Only one small section is devoted to handguns and he justifies why he emphasizes being a rifleman (you use your handgun to fight your way back to your rifle) instead of being a handgun user. But his handgun of choice is a Glock (can't remember offhand specifically which model), citing reliability, although he respects other choices. I don't think there's coverage on shotguns either. The book might as well be entitled "Boston's Guide on Being a Rifleman".

[Axegrinder87]

Bill, how long ago was that? I was under the impression that nearly all police here in the states are using .40 these days.

[RacerX]

Bill, how long ago was that? I was under the impression that nearly all police here in the states are using .40 these days.

Long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away.





























Late 80s, Cleveland

[SEEGERMANY]

I don't want anyone to think I'm the poster child for the .410 gauge. Would I buy a .410 shotgun? No. Growing up in a hunting family, you started with either a 20 or 16 gauge and then moved on to the 12. However, I have shot .410s, especially the 3" shells, that would seriously ruin a good day.

Now, back to pistols. Yes, when the Judge first came out, it was advertised as "the ultimate snake charmer." But as you know, a .45 Colt round is just a little slight overkill for a snake. That's when ammo makers decided to step up their game a bit and developed rounds for the Judge that would be good for personal defense. Yes, I shoot paper targets that are attached to either particle board or lamenated pine plywood. Winchester's .410 ammo puts a hurt on the "backing" and even though I'm thick skinned, I'd hate to look like the plywood at the end of a day of shooting.

Is it my first choice of personal defense? No. It just happens to be one of several weapons at my disposal (Walther for CCW, Baretta @ night stand, Judge in truck, Ruger revolver in Jeep, and Walther goes along for ride in Vet). My final words on the Judge, the Governor, or various other derringer type .410s, I pity the fool who comes up to my window and threatens bodily harm. I've shot the gun, I know what the gun can do, and it has my confidence. Thanks for reading!

[horns666]

Yes one of many tools in the toolbox. I have my 629s, my .38 airweight, Barretta 92 compact, my .22/.22 magnum..ouch, my Beeman Sheridian "Silver Streak"..ow ow ow..!!!

and whatnots!!

BTW..Ron!! It was the early 90's Cleveland! Hah! Not so smart now..you!

March of '94 to be exact. My kid was still in the oven..

[Axegrinder87]

Why can nobody here spell Beretta?
Where you at Ron?

[SEEGERMANY]

Us coonasses ain't too edumacated. We have to associate items to help us speil. Fer instance, we all know what a "bar" is and then throw in our "Aunt Etta" and thar you have it, Baretta.

[Axegrinder87]

I apologize for my anal tendencies, but Beretta to me is like Rhoads.

[horns666]

I can't spell nuthin'...but I rule!