Not virtuosi but lazy, dishonest and unoriginal masturbators.

[Nightbat]

Nah, that's pretty stupid observation. Usually critics are listeners who get paid for it, or casual listeners who want their favorite bands to keep repeating the same kind of material. And when it comes to actual musicians who have been critics then Berlioz did do better, so good as he actually influenced all the great late-romanticism composers... Wagner, Mahler, Liszt etc. But if you mean casual criticism then you perhaps need to read some interviews more, Pat Metheny for example has always been very critical of people who keep the standards low, if we take your nice theory into consideration then he can't do better than Kenny G, yeah sure. But if you mean youtube commentaries or something similar then those fall into the category of premature ejaculation.

Paid critics are listeners who get paid to supply THEIR opinion
when it comes to the individual impact of music, their "professional" opinion can be blown out of their ass for what others think

And your examples are 'musicians' who have been creative with the notes and beats we've had since we recieved the ability to whistle to our tam-tams in our caves

sure we can go 'way out' with combinations and variations, but at a certain point it's not recognized as 'music' anymore
If it were, every song would now have been a random arpeggiator

[atomic charvel guy]

wow, i haven't read all of this thread until now. I've seen Endrik play in person, and he can play great.

[Endrik]

sure we can go 'way out' with combinations and variations, but at a certain point it's not recognized as 'music' anymore
If it were, every song would now have been a random arpeggiator

Who the hell said anything about going way out. If you take a simple tune in C and play a solo using only the notes in C major scale then you have many options how to play those notes. My problem is when everyone whacks off with this order C D E F G A B C D E F G A B over and over and over again like it's the only way to play fast on a lead instrument. It isn't. This stuff is bullshit plain and simple. If the most primitive finger exercise is a major component in pro musicians' vocabulary then it's clearly a problem.

[markD]

If the most primitive finger exercise is a major component in pro musicians' vocabulary then it's clearly a problem.

i agree 100% on this one! for players that ONLY have to play, you would think they'd spend more time creating new ways to approach a phrase.

[Endrik]

i agree 100% on this one! for players that ONLY have to play, you would think they'd spend more time creating new ways to approach a phrase.

Well, that's that was the whole point of this thread

[markD]

it didn't come across that way yesterday!!!

[MartinBarre]

it didn't come across that way yesterday!!!

You aint kiddin.

And we're still waiting to hear an example of what you mean Endrik. It doesnt even need to be you playing it, just post a Youtube vid or something to give us an idea of WTF you mean.
I have a feeling it will sound like shit, which is why no one is doing it and sticks to the usual ways.

[MartinBarre]

For me personally. Jeff Loomis brought something fresh to the table. He's doesn't or didn't read music or theory. All that music is just in there.

Are you being serious Bill? Loomis is a guy I would just assume knows EVERY-fuckin-THING about the guitar and its theory. Like Satch or Vai when they talk and go on about the notes and modes they're using, I just expected Jeff to be a guy like that.

[horns666]

I know Endy is a fan of Louis Johnson, Larry Graham and alot of fusion guys. Old prog rock too like old King Crimson, Genesis, Zappa, and Mo-Town, Di Meola , ..lots of other tings..

Yes it's tru Jeff didn't know a lick of theory and didn't apply any of that shit to his stuff. Several years ago he had a GW column and learned the basics to explain his stuff. His thing is..When you get an idea or whatever . "I just go for it, and that's it"..that's inspiring I think!

He just put alot of time, passion and energy into playing. Besides he's a natural. Did you hear his 16 year old stuff, at the time he auditioned for Megadeth..wow..16. My kid is older.

[Trem]

Frank Zappa.
A lifetime of study of what ever you wanted to know or not know about originality in a guitar solo is contained within his vast library of live improvised guitar solos. I learned so much by listening to him - not tactically like licks and stuff, but mentally in my playing.
Just a different way to look at and approach playing altogether.

I love some very staple guitar lines and modes, minor, phyrigian, melodic minor all mixed together with pentatonic and chromatic - it is my comfort realm where i am able to pull how i feel and the kind of mood of a person i generally am.

Some listener might say it's rehash this or that, but it's pretty much 100% what i hear musically in my head, what i want to hear and what floats my boat, so i don't care.
If i was to shun it all together i would be shunning my whole point in playing guitar - enjoyment.

To try and deviate a little from sounding like that neoclassical guy or his 1000 clones i purposely attempt to throw in some weird suck factor (or Zappa Factor i call it).
I will sit down and just improvise shit attempting to be as weird and suck filled as possible. And have come up with some thing i like (that maybe no regular person would like...and for the sake of this discussion, isn't that the point in commercial music? To make music people Will actually like?) But anyway i have formed some of my own licks that i never would have came up with without trying irregular things out.

To me Frank was a virtuoso, to friends i had tried to turn on to him in the past have called it music for retards. So there you go. One mans virtuoso is another mans retard. Whatever..

[atomic charvel guy]

you have to be a virtuoso just to have been able to be in Frank's band. You had to pass the black page test to get in.
And his songs are fucking great.

[MartinBarre]

My bass player wanted us to learn Zappa songs to cover. "Zombie Woof", "Muffin Man" "Catholic Girls". If thats the shit you guys are saying is better than the normal stuff people listen to you can fuckin keep it. Total pile of wank.
I could understand if it was funny, lyrically, but "some guy thought he was a man but he was a muffin" isnt makin me laugh.
Complete fuckin bollocks.

[Grim]

My bass player wanted us to learn Zappa songs to cover. "Zombie Woof", "Muffin Man" "Catholic Girls". If thats the shit you guys are saying is better than the normal stuff people listen to you can fuckin keep it. Total pile of wank.
I could understand if it was funny, lyrically, but "some guy thought he was a man but he was a muffin" isnt makin me laugh.
Complete fuckin bollocks.

Agree, never a Zappa fan

[Trem]

My bass player wanted us to learn Zappa songs to cover. "Zombie Woof", "Muffin Man" "Catholic Girls". If thats the shit you guys are saying is better than the normal stuff people listen to you can fuckin keep it. Total pile of wank.
I could understand if it was funny, lyrically, but "some guy thought he was a man but he was a muffin" isnt makin me laugh.
Complete fuckin bollocks.

So it's not for Martin - however i think the discussion is about composition, not lyrics.
I don't know that the discussion is trying to name things as "better" but rather as straying from the norm, having some originality and showing some true virtuosity... Which Frank had more in his pinky toe nail than your average evh, clones and otherwise combined. Some of which i don't care for either, but there's some 30 albums of stuff to choose from of which 3 songs is a speck in the sand.

[Newc]

If everyone in the human history would have been so uncreative music wouldn't have developed further from unintelligible yelling in a cave.

I thought that's what the kids were into these days?

But yeah, everyone and their mother shreds the same scales and modes that were old news in '88, and too many people still think that's great. It's not. It's boring.

I think what's really missing is a sense of composition. If you want to do the Classical Shred licks, do it in a more orchestrated format, forgetting about radio-friendly 3 minute crap. Do a concerto or something.