Not virtuosi but lazy, dishonest and unoriginal masturbators.

[Endrik]

It's 2011 and what we still hear from soloists - the same stupid shit.

Some musician or his/her fans claiming to break musical boundaries or just be technically outstanding - sounds familiar?
Yet what we hear - the same shit that's been done bazillion times.
If it's a guitarist you get ascending and descending scale runs or arpeggios, if it's a drummer you get single stroke rolls over tom-toms.
I don't care how fast or clean you are, you are playing the easiest and stupidest shit that's meant as a first exercise for beginning musicians.

You have tons of choices, many intervals to choose from, yet you mostly go C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C or on drums Right Left Right Left Right Left Right Left.
This is suppose to be the top of your creative thought? Breaking boundaries?

Show me any so called top notch player today... 9 out 10 (at least) it is someone who does this kindergarden shit.
If everyone in the human history would have been so uncreative music wouldn't have developed further from unintelligible yelling in a cave.

What the hell is wrong with so called "top notch musicians"?

[horns666]

I hear ya E..I can't read music for poop. I don't know modes, and useless whatnots. I play what I hear in my head..or try to. Because what is going on in my head is real horror show..and yet pretty. John used to say I'm like a Jimmy Page kinda player..because, well, I play whatever I like, and just smash things together to make shit fit. I can see that. Hard to copy someone's mess..Ya'know

As far as masterbating. I was eating greasy hot wings while reading Lou's thread. I washed my hands really good, but I forgot to wash my face and beard good. Obviously, I had wing juice still on my shit..because it was gettin' good at Bubblebutts.com...then this happened!!!

Arrrrggggg...it burns...it burns......my peep..

[markD]

how would you define originality? aside from jazz, where you can truly "experiment" and be considered a "stellar" player?

if i took a iii-vii chord progression in the key of Eb and i chose to solo over it in F# adding a flat5 and a minor9th would i be considered "stellar" or musically inept? i agree about shredders just going weedly-wee with the arpeggios, sweeps and taps - but how exactly would one construct something that is fresh and original these days?

some of what you are complaining about is the common constructs of the certain types of music. the modern practice of forcing everything into a pigeon-hole has also forced musicians to make music that enables them to be labeled and pushed into pigeon holes. often creativity and originality leave you out in the cold when it comes to having your music heard. if you are supposed to be a "metal" player and you use a lot of diminished and suspended chords for progressions, and then solo over them modally...you just became a progressive player. then if the next song is done in a i-iv-v and you rip over it with a pentatonic box, you just became "inferior" in the eyes of the progressive fans.

i amy not be communicating my point as clearly as i hope. ultimately, what i am getting at is that listeners have stiffled musicians by "expecting" certain constructs in the music they listen to. the days of a musician truly being able to evolve, experiment, and grow are waning.....

[bombtek]

how would you define originality? aside from jazz, where you can truly "experiment" and be considered a "stellar" player?

if i took a iii-vii chord progression in the key of Eb and i chose to solo over it in F# adding a flat5 and a minor9th would i be considered "stellar" or musically inept? i agree about shredders just going weedly-wee with the arpeggios, sweeps and taps - but how exactly would one construct something that is fresh and original these days?

some of what you are complaining about is the common constructs of the certain types of music. the modern practice of forcing everything into a pigeon-hole has also forced musicians to make music that enables them to be labeled and pushed into pigeon holes. often creativity and originality leave you out in the cold when it comes to having your music heard. if you are supposed to be a "metal" player and you use a lot of diminished and suspended chords for progressions, and then solo over them modally...you just became a progressive player. then if the next song is done in a i-iv-v and you rip over it with a pentatonic box, you just became "inferior" in the eyes of the progressive fans.

i amy not be communicating my point as clearly as i hope. ultimately, what i am getting at is that listeners have stiffled musicians by "expecting" certain constructs in the music they listen to. the days of a musician truly being able to evolve, experiment, and grow are waning.....

I'm with Mark on this.....and I'm one of the ones that expects certain constructs in the music I listen to. (nice way to put it Mark).

I mean C'mon, you really wanna have a bunch of "Becks" making more crap :LOL:

[Endrik]

There's no chance of being original as all the note combinations are used that's for sure. Important is to create just good sincere music.
But when you take a solo and the overwhelming majority of fast runs consists of ascending and descending scales or arpeggios then you are not sincere, you are just a lazy fuck. An artists should ask him/herself if this is the best he/she can do and does all this kindergarden bullshit really serve the tune the best. You start a fast run, from the first note you have many options, 6th interval, or fourth or whatever and from there you have as many options. But if you knowingly choose to play C D E F G A B all the time then you simply are saying that you can masturbate really fast but not create something sincere.

You can play really boringly over jazz changes too, you just add the tension notes to ascending and descending scales and arpeggios.
You can use even the craziest Coltrane changes in most types of music if you really want to and improvise over it, it's just the way you do the improvising. Coltrane didn't cop out with C D E F G A B bullshit, his idea was to give the best he got.

[Endrik]

I'm one of the ones that expects certain constructs in the music I listen to.

There's many ways how to construct something. You can come up with cool melody and play it fast, just one among many ways how to make "technical" licks. C D E F G A B is just a basic finger exercise.
The same way you can make a groove into a fast drum fill. Tony Williams drum solos actually sounded melodic because he put effort into making them as musical as possible, now he had scary chops, playing something cool requires a lot more technique than single stroke rolls and that is a fact.

[markD]

so you are really talking more about effort and not skill. in that case, i tend to agree with you a little more. still, i will stand by my statement saying that it is the listener that has made the player lazy. sadly, for somebody to make a legit living off their music, the KISS standard (Keep It Simple, Stupid) comes into play.

for instance, my band is pretty much a group of "nobodys". we make our own music, perform it live for others and record it in hopes of "making it" and become able to live solely off our music. we are pretty "commercial" compared to what a lot of bands do, i.e., we aren't METAL (RAAAARRRRR). we DO have several songs over 6 minutes and we have one song that is 17 minutes with a free-form improv section in the middle where we move from the key of E to Am to C# and back to E - everyone (guitar, bass, drums) solos at the same time, interacting off one-another to keep it interesting. the rest of our songs are 4 minutes or less, and follow a straight "pop" song structure.

despite this, we have a difficult time building a fan base. we have some people that say we are "too heavy" - which is really laughable. the metal bands in the area call us "the pink platypus band" because we are so poppy. the casual listener has a hard time "labeling" us because we write a variety of types of songs to keep our set interesting. we do not sound like one long song when you see us live.....

you would think that would be an advantage. it has actually been a curse. since people can't "figure us out", they don't get into us. different segments of listeners will key in on certain songs, then complain that other songs don't sound like the songs they like. then a different group of listeners will LOVE the songs that other group hates, and wants us to make everything sound like that....

it is a battle that cannot be won. we choose to do what we do because it makes us happy, but finding a way to bring our music to a wdier audience is elusive because we aren't conforming to a scripted format that allows us to be pigeon-holed.

i call it the "saigon kick syndrome"

[markD]

There's many ways how to construct something. You can come up with cool melody and play it fast, just one among many ways how to make "technical" licks. C D E F G A B is just a basic finger exercise.
The same way you can make a groove into a fast drum fill. Tony Williams drum solos actually sounded melodic because he put effort into making them as musical as possible, now he had scary chops, playing something cool requires a lot more technique than single stroke rolls and that is a fact.

i am just curious....you talk a lot in threads about all of this elite jazz and these highly technical players. what kind of music do you make? i know you have a 300 watt amp, but not much more about your musical endeavors. i would be very interested in knowing what you do in comparison to correlations you make in conversation....

[Endrik]

I'm talking about both, effort and skill. It requires a lot more skill to play a lick where you have to skip strings back and forth, jump into different intervals and so on than playing 3 note per string ascending and descending scale runs. The point isn't making it as difficult as possible, the point is to make the best sounding licks and whatnot and often they require more practice to pull of than C D E F G A B stuff. Some try to impress with their super fast and clean ascending scale runs, it isn't impressive at all, you just mastered the most simple thing there is, next please!

And if we look at drummers then Vinnie Colaiuta is often claimed to be the scariest dude by other pro musicians... chops, timing, sight reading etc. from another planet. But most of the time when he plays it sounds super musical and groovy yet a lot of those simple sounding things he plays are super hard to pull off. Even for very poppy tunes for Sting he has played in some odd meters and whatnot, but it sounds very listenable for most people. The most basic structure isn't always the best, a real artists tries to find the right thing which makes the song sound as good as possible. I've seen him playing some very simple funk grooves which has some sick 16th note displacement which casual listener wouldn't notice and then go into a very melodic and groovy solo which actually is full of crazy flams and paradiddles, 7 over 6 runs etc. He uses his chops to make as good music as he possibly can (that's why he enjoys playing with Jeff Beck instead of wankfest bands), most drummers would kill for his talent, yet many of them would use those skills to simply show off, and make all those tricks jump into your face.

[Endrik]

i am just curious....you talk a lot in threads about all of this elite jazz and these highly technical players. what kind of music do you make? i know you have a 300 watt amp, but not much more about your musical endeavors. i would be very interested in knowing what you do in comparison to correlations you make in conversation....

What's the difference what kind of music someone makes? It's about how you make it. And correction, it's a 180 watt amp, and I play everything with it.

[markD]

i am just curious if you are a jazz guitarist or not, that's all. i am also curious if you are a music major. is there anything wrong with inquring about what kind of music someone plays? yes, it is about how you make it, but knowing somebody's background also helps understand a person's perspective.

[atomic charvel guy]

i'm about the tune as a whole. for me it has to bring out some kind of emotion, and it has to groove.
like it or not, i need some type of blues sprinkling in songs for me to get off on them.
fuck arpeggios, i like watching guys rip , but write a great song, that's what gets me hard.
it's ok to let loose on a solo, but make it fit the god damn song, otherwise it's just a pile of notes that don't add up to anything.

[jgcable]

The listener has been dumbed down through the years. Because of this... cutting edge or true virtuosity is rarely heard anymore.
The best songs and the best players have never been heard by the general public and never will.

[jgcable]

And another thing... I don't bother ranting about this anymore although it burns my ass so GOOD THREAD Endrik.
I knew I was fighting a losing battle when I had to argue with a few people in regards to who is a better guitar player...
John Mayer or Jeff Beck. Arguements like that make my head explode.
I do think there is a recent guitar player that really stand out. Guthrie Govan
His tone is a little Eric Johnson but his playing is extremely refreshing.
Regarding recordss.... although its not that recent, I think Opeth's Damnation was extremely unique. Sounds to me like what Pink Floyd would sound like today if they kept writing and evolving. It actually give me a little hope for the music industry.

[atomic charvel guy]

there's way too much industry and way too little music in the music industry these days.