Advice from old time metal players...

[VitaminG]

Thats not a good comparison though because Jimmy Page was already famous when Led Zep was formed.

If I use your logic then what about Layla? Another very long song that was played on the radio but Eric Clapton was already famous when he wrote it.

Sultans of Swing, Hotel California, Comfortably Numb, plenty of long-ish songs have received radio play. But I absolutely agree that a song should say what it's got to say and get out. If it takes 11 minutes fine, but more musicians need a good editor to cut out the dreck. Listen to the producer, kids. He's not always trying to make you sell out - sometimes he wants to help you put out a better product (that maybe will sell better)

There are many exceptions to the "long song" rule but 99% of the time, young players tend to flex their "music muscles" too much when writing and end up with a 6 minute plus song that has about 1:30 of good music in it. Especially death metal bands. I have heard many new bands with songs that have 2 minute intro's that pretty much go no where.

hey, I think you just described most of Metallica's output!

[veemagic]

I'm 40 and I had an older cousin that was in the music business. He gave me all sorts of advice, and this did come up for sure. Of course I listened but not to everything the way I should have. Damn if I only would have listened. Personally I have always enjoyed writing songs with the building block method ala early Metallica MOP and others, step build the riff in the intro, main verse riff etc.. and that is very hard to do and keep it 4:30 and less. Of course JG everything you said is absolutely correct. We all know that 99.9999% of these bands have absolutely zero chance of getting anywhere if they don't just write and play and get better. So if they need to write the epic adventures for awhile, and that in itself makes them good song writers, keeps them together, and excited about creating music, well than that is huge. The next next giant leap is to fine tune what they are doing to a more mass audience and to an A&R rep. I remember my meetings with them and they have all too many suggestions that you may or may not be willing to make. The questions is "how much are you willing to compromise?" The answer is different for everybody. Great thread though. If you're open enough to take suggestion.

[lerxstcat]

Thats not a good comparison though because Jimmy Page was already famous when Led Zep was formed.

If I use your logic then what about Layla? Another very long song that was played on the radio but Eric Clapton was already famous when he wrote it.

There are many exceptions to the "long song" rule but 99% of the time, young players tend to flex their "music muscles" too much when writing and end up with a 6 minute plus song that has about 1:30 of good music in it. Especially death metal bands. I have heard many new bands with songs that have 2 minute intro's that pretty much go no where. No A&R person is going to sit through that. Trust me I know. I sat with many A&R people over the years. I worked at one of most prolific recording studio's in the 80's. You need to hook the audience quick.

The problem with death metal bands as far as "making it" is that most even signed and known bands are pretty much scrounging out an existence. We had one club that hosted death metal acts in Gulfport, Kirk's Biz' Zar. Bands like Crowbar and Goatwhore played there, and a "successful" show was 150 tix sold at $10 per head. You tell me what the max they could be making is, with those kinds of numbers. That club closed and is now a pawn shop. Way more money in that.

Shorter songs with melodic singing are what define commercial, and both are the antithesis of death metal. It's got to be tough to even contemplate making a career.

[horns666]

I agree with everything Bill has said so far. Especially about Tosin Abasi; players like that bore me to death. It's all sweeps and technique but there's no voicing, no expression. A guitar solo should be like a little song within a song, it's like singing. Hendrix's playing was so vocal, even the way he used to sing over his playing is demonstrative of that. He knew how to get exactly the right sound out of his instrument that would get his message across, even without being the most technical or precise player. But his unique approach, technique and feel is exactly what made his playing so expressive.

Bands like Animals as Leaders (and even worse - Periphery) don't sound unique nor innovative to me; they just sound like a mish-mash of second rate reject Meshuggah riffs, the worst of the worst of Metalcore-for-malls ala Bullet For My Valentine with seemingly random electronic music elements thrown in for good measure. Every second of it almost sounds like a practice exercise, nothing about it touches me or sends a shiver up my spine like good music should, nothing about it evokes any emotion other than the feeling of confusion as to how anyone can actually enjoy listening to someone play the Mixolydian scale in 57 different modes up and down the fretboard. Not to mention the fact that the band members themselves dress like nerds, have their guitars up to their chins and look like they'd be more comfortable at a skate park than onstage. There's nothing METAL about it - there's no aggression, no fire and no balls!

Now if you excuse me, i'm going to go listen to some Venom...

Dude, you just made a broseph in metal..for life. I'm showin' this to my kid when he gets home. I think he agrees. He had the oppurtunity to post a YT vid of his talents over that bud's house. Instead, He ripped on some Metal-core band..acting a fool in the process. I was pissed. I told him. "Don't ya think you need to establish some cred (he's got the talent) before shreddin' others". In fact, I think one of the guys were/are a member here ..Mike from Born of Osiris (I think), and that dude CAN play. Even if he's in a format I don't care for.

I couldn't wait to post a vid of my son's rythm chops. He does display that for a few seconds ..then proceeds to be a dick. I can't show that!!!!

Oh, that other poor excuse ..flav o the month..Periphery. Jeff Loomis is doin't 30 minutes with those guys. No fuggin' way I'm goin to see my boy open for those fucks. I shred those fucks on a bad day..Jeff will always shred my ass. The show sold-out. My kid wanted to go. The only way I'd go if I could just hook up with Jeff and mutual friend John Comprix. He went and just hung in the back with him. I'm NOT gettin' caught in some fuggin' mosh. I'm much too old and fragile.

I'll go when Jeff is done exposing himself to minors. I can't blame him for doing it. It's great exposure. The kids are lapping him up of course. I'll be honest. I don't care how popular I am as a band. But as a guitarist..I wouldn't want to follow Jeff Loomis. He served Alexi Laiho his ass when COB were really fresh and on their game. Dimmu's bus broke down so NM headlined. That was an amazing show..2002 I believe.

[jgcable]

Sultans of Swing, Hotel California, Comfortably Numb, plenty of long-ish songs have received radio play. But I absolutely agree that a song should say what it's got to say and get out. If it takes 11 minutes fine, but more musicians need a good editor to cut out the dreck. Listen to the producer, kids. He's not always trying to make you sell out - sometimes he wants to help you put out a better product (that maybe will sell better)



hey, I think you just described most of Metallica's output!

Good points and song examples but... The Eagles first number 1 hit was Best of my Love. 3:25
Comfortably numb obviously wasn't Pink Floyds first hit. It was featured on The Wall which was Pink Floyds 11th album!!!
Sultans of Swing was 5:48 in its album version but was only 4:03 for the radio edit version.
Most of the time when you hear extremely long songs written by unsigned bands its because they don't have a stand alone producer.
A recording engineer is never going to tell a band that their songs are too long. I should know, I was a recording engineer and a co-producer at Powerplay Studios in Queens, NY in the 80's. Bands would come in with 6+ minute songs. The A&R people who would listen to them (if you were lucky enough to get one to), would "drop the needle" and if they didn't hear something they liked in the first 20 seconds of the song they jumped to the next track. Same thing on the next track. After usually 3 attempts, if they didn't hear something that caught their ear they would throw the CD or cassette (at the time) in a big pile next to their desk and that pile would end up in the trash. I don't care what genre of music you play, you have to hook the listener as quick as possible.

[joshulator]

I still remember a Steven Tyler quote from an interview I read like 20 years ago...
Don't bore us, get to the chorus!!