27 killed at an elementary school

[emperor_black]

Maybe there should be something that prevents close relatives of mentally challenged people to own firearms? :think: The question still remains how this kid got the guns and the bulletproof vest.

[Endrik]

Typical liberal response.

Typical political illiteracy.

And the accused proved you wrong.

And I can attest, as being a legal conceal carry citizen, that if the employees of that location were allowed to protect themselves with guns, there would not have been 27 people dead.

Ok, and arm school kids with guns too as they need the protection the most as it seems. Better yet, turn schools into military academies instead. It will be great for the future, the culture and science will surely flourish with brainless cowboys running around everywhere.

These shitlheads that shoot up buildings always go to the places that are restricted. They aren't dumb enough to walk into a location with guns inside and start shooting there.

What are these places with guns inside? Police HQ? Military barracks? The shitheads you are talking about are making a statement. They don't always need guns in those armed places, they can walk inside with bombs.

By the way I highly doubt that any suicidal killer cares if the people around him can shoot back.

I will agree that gun laws need to be strict, but lets not start a "ban guns" debate.

I didn't notice anyone saying something about banning.

No, you misunderstand. If more people protected themselves by carrying guns, the lunatics would have less opportunity for these types of attacks.

Why do you think we see school shootings? It's illegal for you and I to carry our legal guns there. There is no way to limit the rights of LEGAL gun owners and reduce these types of attacks.

You can go back through almost all of the recent mass shootings and you will see that those places were not protected by legal gun owners.

Less opportunity? So the whole population is 24/7 alert, weapons out, waiting some kind of an attack? Living in constant fear? That's an interesting cyberpunk plot but I prefer living in a civilization.

Or everyone are just bringing weapons along everywhere, just in case? How do you responds when someone already has shot you in the head?

Maybe you should worry about cultural and sociological issues. Sorry I don't see any school shootings around me, ever, and I grew up in a fucked up place and era.

Nonsense? Really? Please let us know how removing guns from legal citizens will make society safer?

A must psychiatric check up to have a gun permit will make society safer. Insane people shouldn't be allowed to carry weapons, I don't care how "legal" they are.

But I guarantee this, If you and I are eating dinner one night, and someone walks into the restaurant with an Ar-15, you will thank me after I defend your pussy ass.

Excuse me but what kind of restaurants are you visiting?

I assume you have watched a lot of westerns and that sort of stuff, I assure you, it's fiction. You know Wyatt Earp himself said that all the gun heroes in westerns are bullshit, people sneaked and shot opponents in the back instead.

The reality is much different. Most people don't do anything, no matter how tough they think they are. Few help victims, few resist dictatorship, most are onlookers and some are collaborators. You fail to understand basic psychology.
The history is full of victims like Kitty Genovese. You can ask our resident street professor, retired police officer Bill aka horns666 about how people react in real life.

Ridiculous John Wayne "culture" definitely doesn't help.
Needing artificial help to hurt/kill its opponent from a distance. Tough? Yeah right.
But when filthy peasant scum has gunslinger machoism deep in its collective consciousness, mass shooting can be frequent.
Filthy peasant scum in my parts hasn't, no brainless gangster needs guns for street cred, so even when hard crimes were high like in the 90's, there were no mass shootings or large scale shoot outs.

[rdamaral]

Typical political illiteracy.

And the accused proved you wrong.



Ok, and arm school kids with guns too as they need the protection the most as it seems. Better yet, turn schools into military academies instead. It will be great for the future, the culture and science will surely flourish with brainless cowboys running around everywhere.



What are these places with guns inside? Police HQ? Military barracks? The shitheads you are talking about are making a statement. They don't always need guns in those armed places, they can walk inside with bombs.

By the way I highly doubt that any suicidal killer cares if the people around him can shoot back.



I didn't notice anyone saying something about banning.



Less opportunity? So the whole population is 24/7 alert, weapons out, waiting some kind of an attack? Living in constant fear? That's an interesting cyberpunk plot but I prefer living in a civilization.

Or everyone are just bringing weapons along everywhere, just in case? How do you responds when someone already has shot you in the head?

Maybe you should worry about cultural and sociological issues. Sorry I don't see any school shootings around me, ever, and I grew up in a fucked up place and era.



A must psychiatric check up to have a gun permit will make society safer. Insane people shouldn't be allowed to carry weapons, I don't care how "legal" they are.



Excuse me but what kind of restaurants are you visiting?

I assume you have watched a lot of westerns and that sort of stuff, I assure you, it's fiction. You know Wyatt Earp himself said that all the gun heroes in westerns are bullshit, people sneaked and shot opponents in the back instead.

The reality is much different. Most people don't do anything, no matter how tough they think they are. Few help victims, few resist dictatorship, most are onlookers and some are collaborators. You fail to understand basic psychology.
The history is full of victims like Kitty Genovese. You can ask our resident street professor, retired police officer Bill aka horns666 about how people react in real life.

Ridiculous John Wayne "culture" definitely doesn't help.
Needing artificial help to hurt/kill its opponent from a distance. Tough? Yeah right.
But when filthy peasant scum has gunslinger machoism deep in its collective consciousness, mass shooting can be frequent.
Filthy peasant scum in my parts hasn't, no brainless gangster needs guns for street cred, so even when hard crimes were high like in the 90's, there were no mass shootings or large scale shoot outs.

wow, lol.

Where did I say to give kids guns? My point is that people should have the opportunity to protect themselves. I didn't say arm the masses, lol.

Your examples are ridiculous. You honestly think that if a gunman walked into a place where the public was armed, that it wouldn't reduce the number of fatalities? You are correct, in saying that most would not act in that type of situation, but hopefully one would. And maybe, just maybe one child would have been saved.

When have you heard of a mass shooting in a place where it is legal for the public to carry their gun legally? You typically don't.

We are talking anout a person that got ahold of guns illegally and committed a crime with them. What kind of gun control is going to stop that? Let me guess, by taking away the rights of law abiding folks?

And on top of all the other issues, if this kid was autistic, where did he get access to the pistols he used? Reports say he had a glock and sig pistol, and had a rifle in the car.

[Rich#6]

two people shotting at each other just gets more bystanders killed. happens everyday in chicago with the gangs.

[rjohnstone]

two people shotting at each other just gets more bystanders killed. happens everyday in chicago with the gangs.

Or in NYC when the cops (trained to use firearms no less) end up hitting bystanders instead of the perp.

[Shawn Lutz]

I think it should be a bit more difficult to obtain a firearm legally. You should have to be reviewed and complete background check before you are approved to purchase. You should also have to pass psychological test and screened for mental illness in your family. This may help but as I said earlier, if you want a gun, you're going to get a gun regardless if they are legal or illegal or difficult to obtain legally.

Now they are saying the 20 yr old kille dhis mother at home and then drove to the school where she was a teacher.

This shit really makes me sad and angry at the same time. I really feel for the parents and pray they can get through this. I can't even imagine the pain they are feeling, so close to the holidays just makes it so much worse. Any parent will tell you how special it is to make you little ones happy on Christmas morning...now they will just have unopened gifts and misery....so sad

[metal4you]

What I don't understand why kids. If someone needs to go on a killing spree go to the white house and shoot up congress. Then no one will give a fuck. He might even become a hero.

[shreddermon]

Reading this thread, you'd think that defending gun rights is more important than the reality of what just happened today. Everyone just needs to chill, and remember what's really important in the here and now.

Twenty sets of parents just lost their precious innocent, little child. Their other kids just lost their little brother or sister in an act of pure evil, insanity, murder. They will all go home tonight utterly ruined, forever changed. Families with a suddenly empty, painful shell. Never to be the same. An approaching holiday season that will forever change and spoil every one of their holidays thereafter. 8 other families lost their father or mother. Their kids won't understand why mommy or daddy will never come home from work again. Their spouses will struggle every day for the rest of their lives with how to carry on. And they will need to be strong and carry on, for the sake of their families, kids and themselves. A school without many of its teachers and principal. An entire community stained, quite literally in blood. Even the survivors. Those children -pure innocence - forever changed, swept away, traumatized and victimized.

Defending gun rights? Just STFU for a while. That's a debate for another day, another time. Whatever your views, it's disrespectful. Now is a time for sadness, grief, pain and prayers. And nothing else matters now.

[roodyrocker]

two people shotting at each other just gets more bystanders killed. happens everyday in chicago with the gangs.

Or in NYC when the cops (trained to use firearms no less) end up hitting bystanders instead of the perp.

Odd that you guys bring up two of the most restrictive handgun cities in the USA. Sounds like the more gun restrictions you have the worse off us ordinary law abiding citizens are.

Reading this thread, you'd think that defending gun rights is more important than the reality of what just happened today. Everyone just needs to chill, and remember what's really important in the here and now.

Twenty sets of parents just lost their precious innocent, little child. Their other kids just lost their little brother or sister in an act of pure evil, insanity, murder. They will all go home tonight utterly ruined, forever changed. Families with a suddenly empty, painful shell. Never to be the same. An approaching holiday season that will forever change and spoil every one of their holidays thereafter. 8 other families lost their father or mother. Their kids won't understand why mommy or daddy will never come home from work again. Their spouses will struggle every day for the rest of their lives with how to carry on. And they will need to be strong and carry on, for the sake of their families, kids and themselves. A school without many of its teachers and principal. An entire community stained, quite literally in blood. Even the survivors. Those children -pure innocence - forever changed, swept away, traumatized and victimized.

Defending gun rights? Just STFU for a while. That's a debate for another day, another time. Whatever your views, it's disrespectful. Now is a time for sadness, grief, pain and prayers. And nothing else matters now.

shreddermon, I really don't think anyone on either side of the gun debate is trying to be disrespectful. What happened is a horrible tragedy for sure. But you can't expect those of us that believe in our constitutional right to bear arms to be quite when in the wake of such tragedies the calls for more gun control, bans, etc... start within hours of reports of these horrible situations. If anyone wants to discuss how terrible this was we can do that. but we will be arguing gun control issues too if its brought up, as it was here.
BTW, as far as stats go when it comes to comparing the US gun homicide rates vs. other countries there are some factors that the numbers don't tell you. Its been a long time since I looked this up but I found out that in such countries as Japan or the UK when people get violent they tend to direct their violence against themselves whereas in the US its directed against others. So accounting for the population size differences, the homicide rates are higher in the US but suicide rates are higher in the UK and Japan. Point being, there is more going on here than just more guns= more homicides. Again, the stats I saw were years ago and I don't know if this has changed. The bottom line is we have the right to bear arms here and thats the way it should stay. Sorry if anyone who is for gun control is offended by that.
I think we all do agree on both sides how sad this was today

[jdr94]

Reading this thread, you'd think that defending gun rights is more important than the reality of what just happened today.

I agree, i clicked this to read the feelings of others on this terrible tragedy, not gun talk and homicide statistics.

[Rich#6]

Odd that you guys bring up two of the most restrictive handgun cities in the USA. Sounds like the more gun restrictions you have the worse off us ordinary law abiding citizens are.

chicago gun crimes declined after that law was passed. I believe that it was tossed out a few years ago anyway.

[Grim]

Apparently the kid used his Mother's, legally owned, firearms.

Or at least that is a version I heard. If firearms were indeed outlawed, perhaps his mother would not own the firearms in question, and hence, he wouldn't have such easy access to them.

I understand the desire to own a firearm for recreational purposes (although I do not partake myself). However the fact remains that there is still no state in which carrying a concealed firearm is illegal. Nowhere else in the world is gun legislation as lax as it is the US. Something needs to be done. That's 13 mass shootings this year alone. I don't think you'll find that number matched (Fuck, do it per capita if you really want to, despite your units being different you'll still get a rough shooting incidence/population figure) anywhere else in the world.

I await the "Fucking Canadian" comments eagerly.

[Grim]

Where did I say to give kids guns? My point is that people should have the opportunity to protect themselves. I didn't say arm the masses, lol.

Under what circumstance do you see yourself needing a firearm for protection in modern society? This is a side of the argument I fail to grasp. Of course, you can speculate that criminals are going to get a hold of weaponry whether it is legal or not, but the fact remains, those that do acquire said weaponry are probably organized criminal groups and street gangs. Ask yourself whether you'd consider yourself to be a worthwhile target for either of those groups. I'll reckon not. Again, speculate all you want, fact remains multiple reports say the firearms used in this shooting were legally registered to the shooter's mother (Who was also killed during the rampage). Perhaps he would have gotten guns anyway, but at least they wouldn't be in arms' reach.

EDIT:"I didn't say arm the masses"... by saying that, assuming you want your approach to be universal (Like a good Kantian), you, by extension, naturally want to arm the masses.

[Grim]

2.97 deaths per 100,000 were done with a firearm. Pretty damn low to me.

US has highest ownership rate 88 guns per 100 people, yet we're 28th in the ranking for deaths by a gun.
Honduras, with a ownership rate of 6.2 guns per 100 people (same ownership rate as the UK btw) is number one in murders with a gun.
Denmark has an ownership rate of 12 guns per 100 people.

31% of Denmark's homicides are with a firearm, 60% in the US and 83% in Honduras.

Point here is this has nothing to do with the amount or their availability.
It has to do with people and their willingness to use them against other people.

That doesn't seem to be a statistically valid comparison.

I'll suggest you take a look at the average income of a citizen of Honduras relative to the US. Honduras is one of the poorest countries in Latin America. The average citizen (making up the majority of your 100 person sample) wouldn't have easy access to a gun. Most of the homicides in Latin America aren't mass killings like this one either. I'd argue (without statistics to support this, however by logical extension of known facts) that the majority of homicides in Latin America are criminal or political in nature. Two sample groups which would have access to firearms. Hence you see an inflation in gun homicide rates without an associated inflation in ownership rates.

[Grim]

Was not pitting one country against the other.
Just quoting data.
Other things never factored into many of these charts is population density in the areas where the crime is higher.
Higher population density combined with lower income and educational quality tends to have higher rates of homicides involving a firearm.
So one cannot do a straight up comparison based solely on these numbers.
It has too many holes in the data.
You are drawing conclusions about the results without all the relevant data required to make up the full picture.

So again, not arguing for or against anything here, just stating the facts in hand.

My apologies for not seeing this response, but still, the data adds nothing to the conversation as it is not statistically reliable.