Live music in clubs was much louder in the 80's.

[clifffclaven]

Your right. I am going on my experience. My band plays at about 15 different places. Every one of them has a band Friday and Saturday or at least one of the nights. Almost all of them are out for the bar take and could care less about the band. As long as they draw people that drink.

Yep. Anymore tho, It doesn't bother me. I get to show up, eat/drink for free, play my guitar for 3 hours, hang with my friends, and go home with $150 or so in my pocket. Beats the shit outa my day job. Just wish it paid as well lol.

[Codex]

yep, like I wouldn't consider a place like Corner Pocket a club, but they have live bands. It's a pool hall with a bar. Going places like The Anthrax, Nightbreed, Tune Inn, Toad's, The Sting, El N Gee, Tuxedo Junction, etc were the good times back in the day.

[AdRock]

Coming from a soundmans point of view. I've been running sound now for bands ranging from Tejano, to funk, to easy listening , to all out melt your face death metal, and everything in between. From rooms that hold 2000 people to bars that hold 100.

The bottom line is that bars and clubs don't stay in business because of the people that pay at the door to see a great band. They stay in business because of the alcohol sales. If people aren't able to hear enough to order drinks then the bar really loses out, goes under, then everyone sits around wondering why that cool bar closed.

The size of the PA's have changed because the quality of the sound gear has changed. I worked at one club that had a bunch of old amps in a huge rack, 2 double 15's and a horn on each side and 2 double 18 subs on each side. It would get loud, I mean loud, but was about as clear as mud. It sounded like complete shit at the volume they wanted. And it was about as reliable as a fuckin' Yugo with a million miles on it.

On the flipside, I built a system for a club I used to be the house guy at. 2 JBL SRX 722's hung from the ceiling, and 2 JBL SRX 728's, run tri amped with 3 QSC PLX's. It would get even louder and still be clear as a bell. And run all night, balls to the wall if needed, without even breathing hard.

Another thing, huge amps and stacks and all that crap just aren't needed anymore. You put a band that has way too much stage volume into a club and it's going to sound like a jumbled pile of shit 99% of the time. The PA is there to do the work, so let it. Do you really want to have the people that paid to come see you say "It was plenty loud. Sounded like dogshit, but it was loud" ?

[roodyrocker]

Coming from a soundmans point of view. I've been running sound now for bands ranging from Tejano, to funk, to easy listening , to all out melt your face death metal, and everything in between. From rooms that hold 2000 people to bars that hold 100.

The bottom line is that bars and clubs don't stay in business because of the people that pay at the door to see a great band. They stay in business because of the alcohol sales. If people aren't able to hear enough to order drinks then the bar really loses out, goes under, then everyone sits around wondering why that cool bar closed.

The size of the PA's have changed because the quality of the sound gear has changed. I worked at one club that had a bunch of old amps in a huge rack, 2 double 15's and a horn on each side and 2 double 18 subs on each side. It would get loud, I mean loud, but was about as clear as mud. It sounded like complete shit at the volume they wanted. And it was about as reliable as a fuckin' Yugo with a million miles on it.

On the flipside, I built a system for a club I used to be the house guy at. 2 JBL SRX 722's hung from the ceiling, and 2 JBL SRX 728's, run tri amped with 3 QSC PLX's. It would get even louder and still be clear as a bell. And run all night, balls to the wall if needed, without even breathing hard.

Another thing, huge amps and stacks and all that crap just aren't needed anymore. You put a band that has way too much stage volume into a club and it's going to sound like a jumbled pile of shit 99% of the time. The PA is there to do the work, so let it. Do you really want to have the people that paid to come see you say "It was plenty loud. Sounded like dogshit, but it was loud" ?

That's what I'm talkin' about right there

[jgcable]

What I want is my band loud enough to get the crowds attention and not have the house jukebox louder inbetween sets. I want people to feel my band.. not just hear it.

[roodyrocker]

What I want is my band loud enough to get the crowds attention and not have the house jukebox louder inbetween sets. I want people to feel my band.. not just hear it.

Actually, sheer volume is not the way for the audience to feel the band. Our sound man knows what frequencies do that and knows how to set his EQ's, what unwanted stuff needs to be limited, and uses a BBE DS48 speaker management rack unit. Depending on the size of the place we either use my powered QSC 18" subs and 3 way tops or, his passive subs which are 2 18" Eminence loaded boxes each powered by QSC RMX 2450 power amps and his tops are now DAS line arrays (1000w each). He can put a serious hurting on anyone with this stuff but dials it in as he puts it just so it hits you in the chest. It hits hard but its not obnoxious. That's what's different than the old days.

[jgcable]

Actually, sheer volume is not the way for the audience to feel the band. Our sound man knows what frequencies do that and knows how to set his EQ's, what unwanted stuff needs to be limited, and uses a BBE DS48 speaker management rack unit. Depending on the size of the place we either use my powered QSC 18" subs and 3 way tops or, his passive subs which are 2 18" Eminence loaded boxes each powered by QSC RMX 2450 power amps and his tops are now DAS line arrays (1000w each). He can put a serious hurting on anyone with this stuff but dials it in as he puts it just so it hits you in the chest. It hits hard but its not obnoxious. That's what's different than the old days.

Yea, but the PA system you are describing wouldn't even be able to be used in 90% of the places my band plays. Its weird up in Connecticut I guess. There are a TON of places to play every Friday and Saturday night. These places are NOT band friendly and they only care about liquor sales which is understandable to me if they DIDN'T advertise so heavily that they have bands on the weekends. None of these places charge a cover so people aren't obligated to stay if they come in.
My PA system consists of a 1200w power amp for the mains, a 900w power amp for the monitors. We run 2 main PA cabinets from Soundtech. I believe they are 15's or 18"s and a horn each. For monitors we have 3 wedges. We have an SPX90 for reverb for the vocals. Our mixer is a rack mounted Yamaha MX16 that I got from The Georgetown Saloon before it closed. Its the mixer that Keith Richards used all the time. For mic's, we have 2 vocal mics. For the drums we usually mic the kick, the snare and an overhead condenser. That's the entire PA system. At out last show last Saturday we played a place that holds about 200 people. They have a proper stage, lights and they advertise bands constantly. When we were sound checking I had my Peavey triple X 1 x 12 combo mic'd with the master volume on 2. I could barely hear it on the small stage. Bass was not in the PA. Just 2 vocals and the drums. The drum level was so low you could barely tell the difference between the mixer main on or off. Bartender told me we needed to turn down. I turned the drums off and brought the mains down to around 2. We were only getting 1 green bar on the mixer level meter. It was that low! Anyway.. after our set the club put on their house PA which consists of 2 massive JBL powered subs and JBL mains throughout the club. The dance music that they had playing was easily twice the level of the band. This seems to be a typical scenario in the New Haven County area of CT except for a few clubs that allow the bands to play at proper volumes. That's whats important to me.. PROPER volume. If I want to listen to new age or world music its ok if its not booming. If I am listening to Ted Nugent, AC/DC and Van Halen I want it loud. That's just me I guess.

[jgcable]

Also.. just to be clear... my band ALWAYS gets compliments from other musicians about how clear and balanced our live mix is. Its not bottom heavy or shrill.. its very balanced... its just a little on the loud side. My drummer is a POUNDER and we basically mix to the level of the drums. Many times we don't even mic the drums or my guitar. We only mic vocals. Even then... there have been several club owners telling us to turn down. How do you turn down a drum set that isn't mic'd?
ITS MADNESS I tell you!!! MADNESS...

[Rich#6]

I spent 7 years working at a 1900ish seat touring house. (if you saw Public Enemies when they were watching a movie that's the one). We had more of an older crowd. One show we had a bunch of 60's bands play. We would rent a half million dollar sound system. One of the guitar players had to have his marshall stack at 10. People were leaving because it was just too loud.
Our 20 something front of house manager made a comment on how loud Jason Bonham was when we had Foreigner. Even the younger crowd doesn't want loud anymore.

At our venue bar sales were gravy, it was all about the ticket revenue(a good number of the artists would a high % after expenses).
Bands that were loud just to be loud back in the 80's don't release how bad they sounded. for example never a big fan but I walked out on Poison because of the volume(and shitty playing), and skidrow big fan but one of the worst bands live you couldn't make anything out .

[Bert]

Yeah, so many people don't understand the "mix around the drums" thing. Even the bassist in my band :/ We played one rather small venue recently, and because one or two people hinted it was too loud, he freaked out and turned down the PA. Since the drums weren't micd, the end result was a drum-heavy mix that sounded like crap. I later dialed up my amp so then it was all guitar & drums, which was better than before, but still far from ideal.... plus he then bitched my guitar was too loud. I responded with the "have to mix around the drums" lecture but some people just don't get it.

I'm the one that shows up early to set up the PA and get everything dialed in and balanced, so when someone dicks with the mix because of ONE friggin' complaint it drives me absolute batshit.

My rule is unless it's the venue owners & managers responsible for inviting you back making comments about the volume level, they should be politely ignored. There's always someone with sensitive ears who is going to bitch pretty much no matter what, and you can't please everyone.

[AdRock]

Also.. just to be clear... my band ALWAYS gets compliments from other musicians about how clear and balanced our live mix is. Its not bottom heavy or shrill.. its very balanced... its just a little on the loud side. My drummer is a POUNDER and we basically mix to the level of the drums. Many times we don't even mic the drums or my guitar. We only mic vocals. Even then... there have been several club owners telling us to turn down. How do you turn down a drum set that isn't mic'd?
ITS MADNESS I tell you!!! MADNESS...

You turn down a drumset thats not mic'd simply by having a drummer that is talented enough to sound good at a lower volume. Drummers that are just loud bangers and thats it, and wont listen to anyone are limited in talent and limited in usefulness as a bandmate.

[Bert]

You turn down a drumset thats not mic'd simply by having a drummer that is talented enough to sound good at a lower volume. Drummers that are just loud bangers and thats it, and wont listen to anyone are limited in talent and limited in usefulness as a bandmate.

There's only so much backing off a drummer can do without losing punch & energy. rock isn't supposed to be subtle. If you can't even crack the snare, you may as well be using brushes and playing jazz.

[pianoguyy]

Drums and other acoustic instruments (horns, pianos, etc) are the reason why amp-based instruments need a certain amount of stage volume. House volume is a completely separate issue.

Quite frankly, if a place is overpowered by an un-mic'd drum set, then they really should not be having bands to begin with.

[roodyrocker]

We mic the drum set even in the smallest of places. Our PA is flexible enough also that we can take as little or as much as we need. There are ways to manage volume and keep everyone happy. We do it all the time because my friend who is the sound man does this and repairs for a living. When my band isn't playing we are hired to run sound/lights for other bands. I have learned a ton from him and everyone here is approaching this stuff from the standpoint of a guitarist. Doing sound from the other side of the fence makes you appreciate what other problems the sound guy has to deal with and why things have to be done differently than what the band wants.

[AdRock]

There's only so much backing off a drummer can do without losing punch & energy. rock isn't supposed to be subtle. If you can't even crack the snare, you may as well be using brushes and playing jazz.

Then let me ask you this. When you're on stage is the way it sounds to you more important than they way it sounds to the people watching you?