Live music in clubs was much louder in the 80's.

[Mudlark]

As a drummer that's played clubs for 20+ years, I'm very familiar with having to 'lighten up' my touch for volume control. For me, it wasn't terribly difficult since I'm not an incredibly hard hitter.

But, for guys who really do hit hard, not only could it be very difficult to adjust, it would also take away from the 'showy' aspect of their stage show. If a drummer who plays with his sticks well over his head all the time is forced to keep his sticks at chest or head level, not only could his feel suffer, but it would look terrible.

That said, I generally dislike painfully loud volumes.

[pianoguyy]

Then let me ask you this. When you're on stage is the way it sounds to you more important than they way it sounds to the people watching you?

The way it sounds to me on stage is important. No questions. I have a job to do, I will do it. I can't do it if I can't hear it.
BUT
The sound man has a job to do too. He needs to work around me. I set my stage volume. He then sets his levels based what I am feeding him.
What I do on stage is important to me. I can only trust that the sound guy is doing his job for the crowd.






I want to point out, however, that this is separate from the original issue of 'bands aren't loud enough anymore'
A band being loud is typically a PA issue, not an amp issue. Its separate from a singer saying 'i can't hear enough of my voice out of the monitors'.

[xenophobe]

Live music in clubs was much louder in the 80's.

Or your hearing is much worse in the 2010's.

[roodyrocker]

The arguements being made here are nothing new. We go through this a lot with new bands we run sound for. They think it sounds great on stage with their sheer volume. If the guitarists have wireless units I tell them now step out front and listen to what the PA sounds like, crap! A manageable stage volume run by a competent stage guy kills out front every time. Besides that, when my band's stage volume is too loud that's when I can't hear myself. Everything just gets jumbled together to the point that you don't even know where you are in the song. In a rock band, its going to be loud no matter what but great tone is not all about volume!

[Rsmacker]

My rule is unless it's the venue owners & managers responsible for inviting you back making comments about the volume level, they should be politely ignored. There's always someone with sensitive ears who is going to bitch pretty much no matter what, and you can't please everyone.

That's what DFA channels are for on your board. When some smartarse comes over and tells you he can't hear the snare, a little adjustment to the DFA channel, and it's thumbs up from the idiot.
If they catch me on a bad day though, I just say "I do it for a living, get to travel the world, do I come and tell you how to flip burgers? Fuck off"

Um, there's always the possibility that places get you to turn down because, ah, you aren't as fantastic as you think you are!


Oh, DFA = Does Fuck All.

[AdRock]

The way it sounds to me on stage is important. No questions. I have a job to do, I will do it. I can't do it if I can't hear it.
BUT
The sound man has a job to do too. He needs to work around me. I set my stage volume. He then sets his levels based what I am feeding him.
What I do on stage is important to me. I can only trust that the sound guy is doing his job for the crowd.






I want to point out, however, that this is separate from the original issue of 'bands aren't loud enough anymore'
A band being loud is typically a PA issue, not an amp issue. Its separate from a singer saying 'i can't hear enough of my voice out of the monitors'.

I completely agree that the soundman has a job do to. BUT, bands that are too loud on stage make it sound like crap and keep the soundman from being able to do his job.

And I'm not trying to argue or start an arguement so please don't take anything Im saying that way that way.

I agree that a band being loud is typically a pa issue, however it all has to do with the stage volume. When you say that you set your stage volume and the soundguy needs to work around you, what if you're level is wayy too loud and completely screwing the mix in the room. Should the guy still work around you or tell you that you need to turn your amp down? Or possibly just turn it to some angle where it's not affecting FOH?

The sound guy can't always just work around what the musician give him.

Let me throw a scenario out there that I've run into multiple times.

A great metal bands sets up and the drummer is just beating the shit out of the kit, so then the guitar player turns way up because he can't hear, then same for the bass player, then the singer needs tons of monitor to hear himself. Now the stage volume is crazy and I'm pretty much only running vocals out of the mains because of this and the mix is horrible. My hands as the soundguy have effectively been tied. If you were the guy behind the board that was going to get blamed for it sounding so bad and possibly be docked pay for doing a crappy job, would you just work around what the band gave you or say something about it and try to find a happy medium?

I personally would say something and try to find the happy medium, but the larger percentage of bands don't want to hear any of that and would say that I should work with what they gave me even if the paying crowd suffers for it.

[pianoguyy]

I completely agree that the soundman has a job do to. BUT, bands that are too loud on stage make it sound like crap and keep the soundman from being able to do his job.

And I'm not trying to argue or start an arguement so please don't take anything Im saying that way that way.

I agree that a band being loud is typically a pa issue, however it all has to do with the stage volume. When you say that you set your stage volume and the soundguy needs to work around you, what if you're level is wayy too loud and completely screwing the mix in the room. Should the guy still work around you or tell you that you need to turn your amp down? Or possibly just turn it to some angle where it's not affecting FOH?

The sound guy can't always just work around what the musician give him.

Maybe this is where my own personal experiences limit my perception.
I know that there are tiny little shit holes that think they can have bands. I just never played them. In fact, I don't even typically go to them as a customer either.
Who knows what kind of gear I would have taken had I played in one.

So, this is where all of the various scenarios across the globe clash with all of varying levels of professionalism.

I can't picture playing a 'venue' that is smaller than my garage. If I did play at something like that, I can't imagine that I would need a dozen guitars that night -- or effects racks -- or pyro. Certainly not rows of stacks.
Nor can I imagine sitting around with a bunch of lifelong musicians talking about trying to make a dump like that sound good.

In my younger days, I used amp volume to create feedback. If I couldn't turn up loud enough to get it,,, I always turned up loud enough to do it.
But these days, I carry no amps. I plug straight in to the PA and use the monitors for my volume. It still needs to have a certain amount of volume on stage.
Whether it be the old me or the current me, it all comes back to the sound man. I need to do what I need to do on stage. Its then up the sound guy to control what the house hears.



But again. I never played on a stage that was just a corner section of the floor. I never played on a stage smaller than the bed I sleep on.
And, of course, I lie. I did play things like that, but they weren't real gigs. They were parties and events, not gigs.

[AdRock]

I used to have my 4x12 cab right behind me shooting right out at the audience and have it too loud. Until I got an earful from the soundguy that I've now worked with for over 15 years. I played guitar and didn't know about sound. Once I started working with him back in 1997 I learned real quick why I got the tongue lashing. LOL

Plugging into the PA direct and using the monitor is a godsend for the soundguy. I even switched my cab. I sold the 412 and bought a 212. I put it in front of me and lean it back like a monitor. Works great and if I want it loud it's in my face instead of shooting right into the audience. I basically make a V in front of me. 212 on the left and vocal monitor on the right. Mic and midi controller dead center. Basically, the less amps pointed at the audience the better.

[clifffclaven]

I used to have my 4x12 cab right behind me shooting right out at the audience and have it too loud. Until I got an earful from the soundguy that I've now worked with for over 15 years. I played guitar and didn't know about sound. Once I started working with him back in 1997 I learned real quick why I got the tongue lashing. LOL

Plugging into the PA direct and using the monitor is a godsend for the soundguy. I even switched my cab. I sold the 412 and bought a 212. I put it in front of me and lean it back like a monitor. Works great and if I want it loud it's in my face instead of shooting right into the audience. I basically make a V in front of me. 212 on the left and vocal monitor on the right. Mic and midi controller dead center. Basically, the less amps pointed at the audience the better.

I would agree this, but... you have to have a soundman you trust. One of the bands i was in in college, we used to side fill the amps and "trust" the soundguy... Until i found out every show was basically drums and vocals. That being said, I generally set my amp at a reasonable volume, and if i need more, i put some in my monitor.

[PowerTube]

A buddy (fellow guitarist) and I once auditioned a drummer who had a Pearl set with maple shells from the 70's. He was a "decent" drummer, but we went no further with him.

But let me tell you, those maple-ply drums had a THUMP to them that I don't think I've ever heard acoustically before. My former drummer had a Tama metal set. I thought it was loud, but nowhere in the ballpark of those Pearls. From a distance, you would swear that he was miked. And this was at an outside pavilion.

[roodyrocker]

Looks like Adrock learned the same way I did. We're guitar players that got to run sound with others and now we know why you can't just let every band member turn up to whatever they like. In my band we have spun the cabs around to face the wall, across stage, traditional facing the audience, and even no cabs at all. It just depends on the venue but one thing is certain, if it sounds like crap out front then it doesn't matter how happy we the band on stage are. Most of the time now I'm using my Sennheiser In Ear Monitors. So I can have any instrument or vocal turned up or down in my monitor without affecting anyone else or causing feedback. And, at the end of the night my ears aren't ringing! Many of these things are being done by big pro bands as well. Alex Lifeson from Rush is using Palmers to go to the PA, no live cabs on stage at all. AC/DC was using Iso cabs to go to FOH and one cab on stage for Malcolm to hear Angus on his side and vice versa. So if these guys who play in much bigger venues than we do realize they don't need a cranked 4x12 what makes weekend warriors like us think we do?

[Bert]

While I'd love to play a cranked 4x12, I typically use only one side of my Mesa 20/20 (22 watts!) into a 2x12 cab. I have a variety of cabs though, and I notice that when I use larger cabs, people are more likely to think it's loud, regardless of how loud I set the amp.

[jgcable]

All I am looking for is a good balanced sound. I set up our PA and I soundcheck everything. We get compliments all the time on our sound and how clear it is. The problem is when we play small clubs (which is the majority of the time) and they are used to small blues trio's or hack bands with no gear and a 150w PA system. Suddenly we come marching in with all kinds of gear and they freak out. Its common for us not even to mic the drums and have the bartender or the club owner to tell us to turn down the drums.
We had a club owner tell us to turn the bass down and our bass player hadn't even arrived yet. I was playing out of a 1 x 12 combo that wasn't mic'd and let me tell you... there wasn't any bass coming out of it.
There are many bands that bring powered subs. They are great but the bass is always overpowering and really all you hear is kick and bass.
There are some bands that have those fancy Bose pole systems. They sound great too but they don't have any nutz...
I will still stick to my guns.... if you can't get the crowds attention and the house jukebox is louder than the band.. nobody is going to listen.