A conversation with a local club owner

[jgcable]

I started off the conversation showing him my press kit and telling him about my band. Then.. we had a conversation.....
Me... I would like to try to book my band here.
Him.... I don't think I am going to have bands anymore because I at best break even when a band plays.
Me.... Don't you have a built in crowd or do you depend on the Friday and Saturday night bands to bring all the people?
Him... Some bands say they are good and they suck and bring nobody. Other bands are great and say they are going to bring a ton of people and they bring nobody. We have a few bands that draw all the time. They are local and very good.
Me..... Why would you book bands that suck? Don't you listen to them first with either a demo or some other method?
Him.... No.
Me..... To me... its important for a band to bring people if they say they are but I don't think its a bands full responsibility to pack your club. Especially if you are booking bands from out of town. You can't expect a cover band that is 40 miles away from your club to bring a ton of people. Right?
Him.... Thats why I am thinking about not having bands anymore.
Me..... How does that solve your problem? If its the bands responsibility to bring people and if they don't your bar will be empty than how can NOT having a band solve your problem.
Him.... At least I wouldn't have to pay them.
Me..... Wow.. you pay that much that a band could break you in a night?
Him.... Not really.
Me..... The problem you have is you have a good band one week and the few people that are there probably tell their friends about the great band they saw and then they come to your club the next weekend and you have a crap band playing. You need consistancy. You need to have great bands every weekend. If you want to have a night for crap bands.. make it a multiple band night during the week.
Him.... Bands are knocking down my door to play here for free.
Me.... You get what you pay for most of the time.
Him.... Yea... I hear that.
Me..... Let me dispell a myth for you.. Most good bands aren't full of starving musicians.. we don't all live in a 1 room flat, we don't travel around and live out of a van and we aren't living paycheck to paycheck. Many of us probably make substantially more money than you do and we are willing to bring 20K worth of gear to your club and play 40 or so songs for $500.00. We do it because we love to play. Now.. let me ask you... did you ever book a band for a wedding? How much did that run you? Well... the band that played at my wedding made $5000.00 and played about 30 songs. I sat in with them for one song and when I was done playing guitar.. their guitar player wasn't sure he wanted to continue. Doesn't seem fair.. does it?
Him.... No.
Me.... Thats the problem with small bars and establishments that have bands. They just don't know how to market properly. If I booked bands into this place they would all be great and I would advertise the fact that they are great. Great cover bands spread like wildfire and if your place was the place to go see a great band EVERY time you would have no problem with how many people the band brings.
Him.... Can I buy you a beer?
Me..... Sure
BTW.... we didn't get booked there yet. I told him I cannot be solely responsible for packing his club. IMHO... I will bring people and I will entertain his built in crowd. They will love it and thats how you build an audience and how the bar gets crowded.

[roodyrocker]

You are correct John. Another thing is when bar owners cut a band's pay for the evening from say $500 to $350-400, which has happened to many bands around here. I think to myself the same thing you were saying which is is that $100-150 margin all the profit this club is operating on for the night? If so, they're in bigger trouble than just whether they need a band or how much to pay them. Thing is these bar owners have unrealistic expectations from bands. Several years ago I sent a demo pack to a bar about 30 miles away. When I spoke with the owner on the phone he said to send him a demo kit and I said I did. He said oh yeah it's here somewhere, send another one but his bar holds 200+ people, could we we bring 100? I told him the same thing you said, you can't expect a new band from 30 miles away to bring in 100 people. We never played there either. Most bar owners are people who just decided to buy a bar. Many of them don't last, they eventually close or are under new ownership/management relatively quickly. You are also correct about very few of them putting any money into advertising. The bands themselves hanging up flyers in the bar and announcing it on Facebook is about the extent of it. Bands aren't a priority for them. If they were then we'd be walking in to clubs with nice stages and plenty of power outlets running off different circuits. It really is tough playing in bar bands these days, but as you said we do it because we enjoy it not because its our main source of income

[Rsmacker]

Well done for getting stuck in and talking to the bar owner, I know that hereabouts everything is very depressed, most people wouldn't even bother to try and talk anyone round. It really is tragic to see pubs that used to have bands on every week boarded up, turned into flats or just demolished. Those that are clinging on have turned to karaoke to stay aflot, but even that's not massively popular. I hope your enthusiasm pays off, and that you a. get a gig and b. give the place some help to become a popular live venue.

I suppose I'm part of the problem too though, I rarely go out to see any pub/bar bands, simply because I have to deal with them during my working day. I like lying down in darkened rooms listening to whale song and pretending I'm a fish, coating my body with baby oil and wriggling...erm, ahem, let's leave that right there. What I mean to say that more of us need to get off our arses and go down to the local live venue, have a pint and watch the bands they have on (even if it's just to say "Meh, my guitars are sexier than those").

I did go out the other night to see MOD in a little tiny shit-hole of a venue, grandly called "The Queen's Hall", which is about 40' from end to end, sitting right in the town centre beside lots of cramped Victorian terrace streets. Absolutely blinding gig, Milano was on form, but the support bands were pretty good too, even if very amateur and obviously setting out on the gig circuit. I will be going back more regularly , just for a drink and to help keep the place open, it takes massive balls for any venue owner to spend money on house PA, staff, promotion etc in the face of today's economic climate.

[jgcable]

There are plenty of people out there that want to see a really good cover band playing the songs that they want to hear. The problem is the club owners or booking agents don't know what they are doing and blame every shortfall on the band. They should all take some kind of course on how to successfully promote live bands.
I even proved it to the guy. There are some REALLY popular cover bands around here. EVERYTIME they play.. the bar is packed. Why? Because the people that go see them know they are going to have a great time. There are so many GREAT bands around here a bar could have a GREAT band EVERY weekend with no problem. Instead.. they have a GREAT band once a month at most and total crap bands in between and then they complain that the crap bands don't bring anybody.
Its common sense to me. I only see a crappy band once and its usually for about 25 minutes before I leave. If its a really good cover band I will generally stay all night.

[xenophobe]

Wow, you guys are lucky. Non-signed acts rarely get paid here in the Bay.

Some bars will give you a cut of ticket or drink sales, but not really often.

Weekend headliners do get paid, but those are usually signed acts on tour.

Cover bands don't get paid anything here for a regular show... maybe if they can find a club that wants a regular house band to perform several sets a night, but no clubs here do that at least for metal.

[clifffclaven]

There are plenty of people out there that want to see a really good cover band playing the songs that they want to hear. The problem is the club owners or booking agents don't know what they are doing and blame every shortfall on the band. They should all take some kind of course on how to successfully promote live bands.
I even proved it to the guy. There are some REALLY popular cover bands around here. EVERYTIME they play.. the bar is packed. Why? Because the people that go see them know they are going to have a great time. There are so many GREAT bands around here a bar could have a GREAT band EVERY weekend with no problem. Instead.. they have a GREAT band once a month at most and total crap bands in between and then they complain that the crap bands don't bring anybody.
Its common sense to me. I only see a crappy band once and its usually for about 25 minutes before I leave. If its a really good cover band I will generally stay all night.

I would agree with this. But the real problem isnt people like us. Its people like the bar owner, and generally most of the patrons. Most people have NO CLUE if a band sucks. There are several here that are flat out terrible. If people can recognize the song (sweet child, acdc, zeppelin, etc) then thats all that matters. Theres two or three of you and i in the corner ripping these jackasses to shreds and 30 people on the dance floor who dont care. They just heard their "favorite" song. Here, im fortunate enough to play in two really good cover bands. My 80s band, however, now plays about 6 gigs a year, all outside bike night type things. There is nowhere in town that will meet our guarantee ($1000 or more depending on the gig) except these type of gigs that have sponsors or are city sponsored things. Theres two bars here we could play but its for the door, and one does an 80% band 20% bar from the door, and the other bar you are responsible for paying their soundman, even if you bring your own.

[jgcable]

As an example... my band plays lots of shows. 2 in particular from last year...
1st gig... small place, really small. He pays $300.00 for an entire night of music and the band has to supply everything except power.
Our last show there we had the place so crowded there were 40 people outside. It was 7 deep at the bar. At the end of the night when we got our $300 I asked the booking guy and the bartender how the bar did. He said they had a REALLY good night at the bar. I told him that we have done 5 shows here for $300 and we have packed it every time. I have seen other bands here that bring nobody and they get the same amount of money. He told me $300 is all he pays and he has bands knocking down the doors to play there for free! I told him we get $500.00 from every other place we play but because his place is so small.. the next show we will do it for $400. He told me that won't work. $300 is all he will pay. I don't understand the logic. Book a crap band that brings nobody and pay them $300 but he won't book a band that packs the place to the rafters with drinkers all night long for $100 more.

2nd gig. Another place. Its huge. The last time we played there it was so crowded they had to call every available bartender in to work. People couldn't find places to park and were walking 3 blocks to the club. There was easily 300+ people in this club. Typically.. when a crap band plays there they have about 50 people. Maybe 75. We play there for $400 + a performance bonus based on what the bar makes. The bar made more money that night than any other night of the year. We got no bonus. When we asked why.. they told us that they decided not to give out bonus's based on bar take because no other band asks for them. They said that most of the bands that play there are willing to play for free for exposure.

So.. I ask you.. club owners and fellow band members... what exactly is "exposure?" These are all cover bands. These are all musicians of ages ranging from 30 to 60. Nobody is expecting to make it in the music business playing cover songs in a bar band. What does exposure actually mean? Does it mean you can tell people you played somewhere for free so you can get a gig at another place for free?
This... is why these bars are hot and cold. No consistency in the quality of the music because they simply don't care about the music even though they claim that they won't book you unless you have a large following.
Its madness.

[clifffclaven]

Oh I hear you man. It's the same way here for us. I think part of what upsets the balance is what I was saying above. A lot of shitty bands here draw decent crowds because most people are clueless. Band A sucks but draws 100 of their drunk idiot friends, gets $200... Band B draws the same, is actually good, but wants $500. You and I know who is more than likely gonna get the first call. I feel your pain man. It sucks.

[veemagic]

I am just going to chime in, and basically agree with whats been said already. John I hear ya. Not much different around here either. The talent in the bands performing the local bars, and the amount of bars that are set-up to feature bands have declined so much over the last 20-25 years that the expectations have plummeted. So when a really good band does show-up no one recognizes, or more often then not, really cares. Certainly not the bar/club owner. The only way you can make "good" money around hear is during the summer, and play the church festivals. They are the only ones who pay, and pay very well. An established band can play nearly every weekend and make a couple thousand a weekend, easy. These shows are outdoors, and you are playing to several hundred people or more on average. This season is short, and because of that, it gets pretty competitive for the larger of the festivals. Of course we also have Summerfest (The largest Music festival in the world) and all the weekend festivals that come after that at the lakefront. There are many opportunities there as well. Again, we are talking June to end of August, then its back to the bars and the same crap you are talking about. John, if your band ever wanted to travel for a gig, you should look into Summerfest. If you don't know about it, I know it would surprise you.

[Bert]

Yep, this is all quite familiar. My cover band has played many "BYOC" (bring your own crowd) type venues around here. Very few places that host local bands draw their own crowd. We do usually get at least $300 though, but that's not a lot for playing from 9 to 1am!

[atomic charvel guy]

bands still play at bars and clubs?

[roodyrocker]

bands still play at bars and clubs?

Yes, on occasion they let us open for the DJ

[pianoguyy]

Yes, on occasion they let us open for the DJ

Don't laugh. Its not funny.
A local casino advertises like that. Small print band eight to midnight big print dance the night away with random dj name.

[Shawn Lutz]

Seems like renting out the local VFW hall, marketing yourselves and havin a low cover charge may be the way to go these days.

Reminds me of the who cover vs original bands issues we used to have way back when. Some cluns let you play originals, some no and sometimes we slipped a few in the cover set.

The way the industry as gone you don't make any money from album sales..you sell a few CD's or iTunes and it gets ripped off lol...build your own following, get some merchandise and make a few bucks and that is it. I made I think 5000-7000 tops in a good busy year way back playing originals and some covers and that is poverty and I wasn't about to hit the road for that kind of life style so I gave up the dream of doing it for a living in late 80's. The talent vs dollars made is way outta whack too and that is discouraging

[roodyrocker]

Don't laugh. Its not funny.
A local casino advertises like that. Small print band eight to midnight big print dance the night away with random dj name.

My band played at a place several years ago which was a huge place with big stage and good lights, sound system, etc... In fact they had occasional national acts in there. However, on any given weekend they had local bands play from around 8:00-10:00 then put the DJ on the rest of the night. It was the dumbest thing I've ever seen a well equipped club do. They eventually closed.