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**DJROBA** · 05-12-2004, 01:17 PM

Re: What kind of man is our prez?

lerxstcat: Well said!
I do not wish to debate religious beliefs anymore. I say, great job so far Mr. President [img]graemlins/toast.gif[/img]
If I offended anyone through out this whole thing, I deeply apologize and wish all of you well. This topic has gotten alittle out of hand, so I will leave it hear, and get back to talking about guitars. PEACE!!

**monk** · 05-12-2004, 01:32 PM

Re: What kind of man is our prez?

Originally posted by lerxstcat:
Monk, we believe war is justified for self-defense, which is why we didn't exploit situations when we won as other world conquerors have done. "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't mean you can't defend yourself. We believe that when we see evil being done that can have worldwide ill effects, that we are obligated to stop it if we can. That's what we are trying to do now in the Middle East with its dictatorial governments, starting with Iraq. The hope is that Iran and Syria will both moderate as Iraq becomes a more open society. Libya's Kadafi has already toned down his rhetoric, and we hope that as represzentative government takes root and the people's literacy and living standards rise, that their hatred of the West, indoctrinated and maintained by ignorance, will abate.

Yes, you kill and go to war because you are human beings that are fighting for your own survival, just as anyone else that has ever walked on this planet. "Thou shalt not kill" means only one thing, and that is simply that you should not take another persons life. This is the main core of every religion, to value life and not to destroy it. If everyone would follow what religion tells them there would not be any wars.

The war in Iraq is not justified by christianity, or any other religion for that matter. If you do not agree, prove me wrong.

War is due to biological and evolutionary processes and nothing else. Religion is made up as an attempt to cover this up, and to make people feel better.

**lerxstcat** · 05-12-2004, 02:02 PM

Re: What kind of man is our prez?

Yes, but our government is secular, not religious. Our moral value is, "thou shalt not kill", but we feel that self defense is a reasonable exception to that rule. I'm saying that if we were out to imperialize and colonize, the best time would have been in 1945 when everyone else was played out and we had sole possession of atomic weapons. The fact that we didn't nuke Russia and Maoist China as soon as we could and take over everything proves volumes more than words can say about this. Had the USSR been in our position, there is NO doubt they'd have done that. Same with Red China, or Germany, or probably Britain for that matter. Why can't you see that and realize what it means? We basically want to be left alone to do our thing in peace
without having some psychos blowing shit up and disrupting that peace. What is wrong with that, exactly? We've already covered the ground where the West the Muslims are pissed at is really Europe historically, and the US basically gets that heat for being the child of Europe culturally, and for supporting Israel after Europe turned a deaf ear to the Holocaust. Do we need to rehash all that
really?

**the_drip** · 05-12-2004, 02:06 PM

Re: What kind of man is our prez?

wow, lerx. Where've you been anyway?

**lerxstcat** · 05-12-2004, 02:28 PM

Re: What kind of man is our prez?

Spent a week visiting my newborn great niece, then another week in the hospital for a weird EKG reading and high blood pressure. Thanks for noticing I was out.
As much as I usually ramble about everything I guess it was noticeable when I was gone, eh?

**monk** · 05-12-2004, 02:51 PM

Re: What kind of man is our prez?

Originally posted by lerxstcat:
Yes, but our government is secular, not religious. Our moral value is, "thou shalt not kill", but we feel that self defense is a reasonable exception to that rule. I'm saying that if we were out to imperialize and colonize, the best time would have been in 1945 when everyone else was played out and we had sole possession of atomic weapons. The fact that we didn't nuke Russia and Maoist China as soon as we could and take over everything proves volumes more than words can say about this. Had the USSR been in our position, there is NO doubt they'd have done that. Same with Red China, or Germany, or probably Britain for that matter. Why can't you see that and realize what it means? We basically want to be left alone to do our thing in peace
without having some psychos blowing shit up and disrupting that peace. What is wrong with that, exactly? We've already covered the ground where the West the Muslims are pissed at is really Europe historically, and the US basically gets that heat for being the child of Europe culturally, and for supporting Israel after Europe turned a deaf ear to the Holocaust. Do we need to rehash all that
really?

Oh, I thought you were going to quote from Ecclesiastes.

I think you are smart enough to realize that it would be impossible trying to rule the whole world. Bush has enough problems with just holding half of your continent together, and I cant blame him. Its funny that the most important job in the world is one of the jobs you cant get an education for. Also, the earth would not be able to support the whole world living at western levels of standard.

"We basically want to be left alone to do our thing in peace without having some psychos blowing shit up and disrupting that peace. What is wrong with that, exactly?"

Nothing is wrong with that, besides that it will never work. Your society is depending on resources that you do not have (at least not located in your own country). That is the reason to why you are involved in the middle east region. This is also why the arabs are pissed off, because they have finally started to understand that they are being plundered on what they consider "their oil". You have created a society that requires you to be all over the world, and when you dont leave other people alone you cant expect them to leave you alone either.

**YetAnotherOne** · 05-12-2004, 03:13 PM

Re: What kind of man is our prez?

Originally posted by Monk:
This is also why the arabs are pissed off, because they have finally started to understand that they are being plundered on what they consider "their oil".

Oh please. You make it sound like Americans are stealing the oil right out of the ground. The fact is that the Arabs (and other net exporters) produce it (or have someone produce it for them if they're too incompetent/lazy to do it themselves) and sell it at prices that they themselves determine. How could any rational person consider that "plunder"? (Hint: they couldn't).

**ApeDosMil** · 05-12-2004, 03:26 PM

Re: What kind of man is our prez?

Joseph Stalin killed 20 million Soviet citizens between 1929 and 1939 because they weren't considered "politically correct." Mao Tse-tung killed 34 to 62 million Chinese during the Chinese civil war of the 1930s and 1940s. Pol Pot, the leader of the Marxist regime in Cambodia, Kampuchea, in the 1970's killed 1.7 million of his own people.

They killed a lot and were atheist.

**monk** · 05-12-2004, 03:31 PM

Re: What kind of man is our prez?

Originally posted by YetAnotherOne:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Monk:
This is also why the arabs are pissed off, because they have finally started to understand that they are being plundered on what they consider "their oil".

Oh please. You make it sound like Americans are stealing the oil right out of the ground. The fact is that the Arabs (and other net exporters) produce it (or have someone produce it for them if they're too incompetent/lazy to do it themselves) and sell it at prices that they themselves determine. How could any rational person consider that "plunder"? (Hint: they couldn't). <hr /></blockquote>I did not say that I think it is "their oil". In another thread, I also claimed that they were to stupid to benefit from the oil by themselves and that they didnt know how or why they should drill for it. We are in agreement so far.

Okay, "plundering" is the wrong word. What would happen if they decided to close their borders, and keep the oil to themselves or selling it at 10x the price (because they know everyone is depending on it)? Of course, they would be invaded within the next 2 days. Indirectly, they are not plundered, but they are forced to sell.

Of course, if they refused to sell oil their only income would be from exporting sand and kamels. Last time I checked, that market is still not as good as the oil market, but who said they are bright enough to realize that?

**lerxstcat** · 05-12-2004, 03:54 PM

Re: What kind of man is our prez?

Monk,

Ruling the entire world was and is very possible; we just didn't do it because it wouldn't be right.

Why would the whole world need to be brought up to western standards of living
by a world government? I don't imagine that would be a goal. Germany didn't conquer Europe to raise Europe's standard of living, but to raise GERMANY's. Get the picture?

We're the bad guys for being involved in the Mideast, but unlike you we don't think the Arabs are too stupid to learn, we just think nobody has bothered to teach them. That's the difference between the USA and Sweden, we DO believe in equality - of potential, at least.

As far as resources, your society has very few natural resources and must import almost everything it uses - far more so than the US on a per-capita basis. In that regard you
are similar to the US, which you belittle but are glad to share in the benefits our prescence on the world scene provides.

[ May 12, 2004, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: lerxstcat ]

**monk** · 05-12-2004, 04:39 PM

Re: What kind of man is our prez?

Originally posted by lerxstcat:
Monk,

Ruling the entire world was and is very possible; we just didn't do it because it wouldn't be right.

Why would the whole world need to be brought up to western standards of living
by a world government? I don't imagine that would be a goal. Germany didn't conquer Europe to raise Europe's standard of living, but to raise GERMANY's. Get the picture?

We're the bad guys for being involved in the Mideast, but unlike you we don't think the Arabs are too stupid to learn, we just think nobody has bothered to teach them. That's the difference between the USA and Sweden, we DO believe in equality - of potential, at least.

As far as resources, your society has very few natural resources and must import almost everything it uses - far more so than the US on a per-capita basis. In that regard you
are similar to the US, which you belittle but are glad to share in the benefits our prescence on the world scene provides.

http://earthtrends.wri.org/pdf_libra...ne_cou_752.pdf [SWEDEN]

Import: ~31.4
Export: ~11.0
Total: Import of ~20.4
Population: ~8 500 000 (1997)

Import per capita: ~ 2.4e-6

http://earthtrends.wri.org/pdf_libra...ne_cou_840.pdf [UNITED STATES]

Import: ~614.7
Export: ~105.1
Total: Import of ~509.6
Population: ~260 000 000 (1997)

Import per capita: ~1.96e-6

Yes, you are right about that (damnit [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img] )

I do not belittle you. I just think that the hypocrisy when it comes to given reasons for "why you are doing stuff" is bs.
If it wasn´t for you, the western world would not be as good as it is today, and for that I am thankful, I guess. To keep our high standard, other parts of the world needs to stay in chaos and keep their resource consuming at a minimum.

You should read this book.

I did not say that there wasn´t potential in the poor regions. I just said that today, they are on a way less intellectual level and that is also the major reason to why they suffer. You cant bomb someone smarter. It is a natural process that has to take its time.

**the_drip** · 05-12-2004, 04:54 PM

Re: What kind of man is our prez?

Originally posted by lerxstcat:
Spent a week visiting my newborn great niece, then another week in the hospital for a weird EKG reading and high blood pressure. Thanks for noticing I was out.
As much as I usually ramble about everything I guess it was noticeable when I was gone, eh?

yeah I noticed. good to have you back. makes the arguments more entertaining. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

**lerxstcat** · 05-12-2004, 04:57 PM

Re: What kind of man is our prez?

Well, Monk, it takes a level of literacy to score well on IQ tests, so that measures education, not innate intelligence. That doesn't meant that those people are "stupid" or "not bright", terms you used.
It only means they haven't been educated, which is due to being ruled by despots who hog the available resources for themselves.

The population of the US is now 300 million, btw. I don't think we've gained 40 million people since 1997, so those figures look to be wrong.
The basic results are still valid though, I think.

Hey Drip, thanks for the good wishes!

**YetAnotherOne** · 05-12-2004, 04:58 PM

Re: What kind of man is our prez?

Originally posted by Monk:
Okay, "plundering" is the wrong word. What would happen if they decided to close their borders, and keep the oil to themselves or selling it at 10x the price (because they know everyone is depending on it)?

I would say, "More power to you. Enjoy your oil." But because I'm a rational capitalist I understand that such a scenario cannot happen. Perhaps in one or two exporting nations but not across the board. Further, if it did (even in a small way), it would dramatically quicken the pace of alternative energy research and that could only be a good thing in the long run.

**monk** · 05-12-2004, 05:10 PM

Re: What kind of man is our prez?

Originally posted by lerxstcat:
Well, it takes a level of literacy to score well on IQ tests, so that measures education, not innate intelligence. That doesn't meant that those people are "stupid" or "not bright", terms you used.
It only means they haven't been educated,
wich is due to being ruled by despots who hog the available resources for themselves.

The population of the US is now 300 million, btw. I don't think we've gained 40 million people since 1997, so those figures may be wrong.

http://www.census.gov/prod/3/98pubs/p23-194.pdf

I just did a search for "united states population 1997" and picked the first option. It said 266 490 000 there.

Okay, if their is no one-way correlation between IQ and poverty, what is the reason to why so many people live in poverty and misery?

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