It look like I've made to a new decision.

[Ninja Guitar]

I'm going to go to a university, and get a degree.

Like so many of us, I've been trying so hard to follow my dream of being in a band and making music for a living. I've been very stubborn for a number of years now, and over the past couple years I've learned a bit of vital new information.

For one, no one making the kind of music I make gets famous, or rich. I mean, can Darkthrone and Morbid Angel really be considered famous, or rich? Getting to that level of success in this buisness is so difficult. Also, I was never interested in being rich or famous anyway, just making my kind of music and getting to as many ears as I can.

Second, on a more personal matter, I hate concerts, am not always a big fan of performing live, and prefer working on my own as a solo project as opposed to working in a band. Therefore, my chances of becoming a famous and rich solo death/black metal band are pretty slim. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] . It's possible, but definitely not probable. And generally, if you don't become rich and famous, you're poor. I don't want to be rich, but I don't want to be poor either. I want good guitars, good studio equipment, a cosy house, healthy food, and a reliable car. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Now, we on this very forum have a couple people who seemed to really follow their dreams without any college. Ace seems to be a kick ass person, and a happy person. But there's a difference between me and Ace: He's hardworking, resourceful, and smart. I'm kinda lazy, resourceful only when I'm in the mood to be, and generally clueless. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I've been going to a community college for three years now. All the classes I've taken were working towards a certificate in guitar performance and sound engineering. I'm basically done with all these classes and have my certificates.

I think I'm going to work towards a degree in studio/sound engineering. I've proven to be quite knowledgeable and talented in this field, when provided with the proper equipment. With some hard work and a degree, I hope I can easily pay my desired expenses, while leaving me plenty of time to write, record, and sell my own music and just be creative.

So, can any of you offer me some advice, experience, knowledge, concerns of my possible decision. It's not set in stone just yet. Is studio/sound engineering and production a good field?

[Ace]

Re: It look like I\'ve made to a new decision.

1. Move to L.A. or Nashville.

2. Learn EVERYTHING you can. Never pass up an opportunity to work with someone new.

3. Get a girlfriend that has a good job that supports you both financially and mentally. And make sure she has a nice ass.

4. Be a likable person. No one wants to work with an **** and you will find yourself sitting at home with a degree, $250,000 worth of recording equiptment and zero work. This business is 90% who you know when it comes to getting work. When you get work, you've gotta be the fuckin' BEST at it, or you won't get called again.

5. Look the part. Nobody wants some dorky looking guy behind the board for the website photos.

6. Be prepared to be disappointed. I'd live under a fuckin' freeway if I didn't have people who care about me. No matter WHO you are, there are gonna be hard times. The frontman for Everclear has sold 5.1 million albums and is millions of dollars in debt. Just ASSUME that whatever you are working on now will end and you will be back at square one.

7. Develope a tolerance for alcohol. I know it sounds weird, but a lot of musicians won't work with someone who they don't feel they can party with. However, DON'T become a useless drunk/druggie.

8. Get the best education you can, then work for free for awhile.

As for me being happy, that comes from within my friend. Money has nothing to do with it. And as for hardworking, when I'm on the job I'll work harder than anyone else there, and party harder too. But on off days it's another story. Today I woke up at noon, took out the trash, cut the lawn, did my laundry and I'm going to scrape my pipes AGAIN to see if I can't find anything good, then I'm gonna pick up my new business cards and go stay with this chic with a big butt tonight. Gross income: $0

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: It look like I\'ve made to a new decision.

One of my best friends had EXACTLY the same discussion with me years ago. He could have easily been the writer of your post. I'll tell you about what he did, but it really isn;t telling you what to do, just his experience.

After he spent a year or so going after the Sound Engineering classes, which took him from Akron U, to Miami U, or U of Miami, I forget, he ended up working in a studio in Florida, pretty much being a slave I guess. It was somewhere YJM had recorded before I remember. Anyways, working there, he talked to enough people in the field to change his goals and end up going into Electrical Engineering instead. He decided to do that, and get into maybe working for a music related company instead of the Sound Engineering thing which he REALLY wanted to do. But, since he was already modding amps and pedals, he went to Electrical. He interviewed with a lot of cool companies, VHT, DOD/Digitech, New Sensor/Electro Harmonics, and even Peavey I seem to remember, and none of them could pay very much either. Not enough to pay his student loans and cost of living there. DOD was probably the best of them for the ratio, but they were located in Salt Lake City, not his idea of where he wanted to be I guess.

He went to more general stuff, and worked out of the musical field. Now, he does make good money now, working for Bose in Boston. But, where he is is outrageously expensive to live. So, his pay isn't really that much realistically. He doesn't like the job that much anymore and doesn't like the area. Sadly, there just isn't much "high technology" in places where it is cheap to live like here, so he is limited where he can go and get an appropriate job. Pretty much LA, NYC, Boston, Germany, China, Japan. Other wise he would be working on machine control systems or in Sales it seems. Lotsa places use electronic engineers in sales I guess.

Nonetheless, his Electrical Engineering Degree was more useful to him than the Sound Engineering one would have been. But, if he could have landed a job in the field, he'd probably have been happier.

Considering what all you are thinking about, I would really investigate your options and what you might really want to do for a solid job and good living. I seems that things that are involved in music, no matter where you are, aren't usually a great living. Unless you own a company or something of course.

He used to get sad when he found out that I generally had more money than him, and he made over twice as much as I did. Plus, he had a tremendous amount of education compared to me. I found that sad too. But, he'll have a solid future, and I'll be eating pet food when I'm 75, haha... So, he's doing better IMO. hehe...

Good luck man... Sorry for rambling, but maybe it will give you some food for thought.

[Ace]

Re: It look like I\'ve made to a new decision.

For every Bob Rock there are 1,000,000 over-qualified dishwashers in Hollywood.

[Badseed]

Re: It look like I\'ve made to a new decision.

Regardless what you decide, make yourself happy and follow Ace's rule #3 whenever possible, although i would change it to "make sure she has a nice big rack" instead.

Dave

[ElwoodBlues]

Re: It look like I\'ve made to a new decision.

Newton's Law (Modified):

The ass you will you places the big rack will not.

[Tetsuo]

Re: It look like I\'ve made to a new decision.

If you are not big on live preformance you will be much happier doing something not in the music biz IMO. Why work can be evil and if your work is the music industry your inspiration can be zapped. Say you work in investing.. when 9-5 is done you go home to your studio and you can go about what you love... 9-5 pays the bills your musical love is never a burden then never something you have to depend on for the food on your plate which to me can taint it

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: It look like I\'ve made to a new decision.

Good advice!

Yep, I used to love working on cars till I started doing it for a living...

I used to love playing out till I played out so much, it became just a hard job and became un-fun. I grew to hate that as well for quite some time.

Interesting. Always thought it would be nice doing something you loved, for your living. But it seems that doing so often burns you out on it.

[thetroy]

Re: It look like I\'ve made to a new decision.

[ QUOTE ]
3. Get a girlfriend that has a good job that supports you both financially and mentally.


[/ QUOTE ]

Don't ever expect anyone to support you but yourself. As far as choice of majors in school goes, I would probably go for Electrical Engineering instead of something as specialized (and totally difficult to make a living in) as anything in the music business.

I'm in a sort of similar situation where I'm not sure what I want to do after college. I actually went to MIT last year then took this year off to try and figure things out because I just plain didn't like it there. Right now it looks like I'm going to be at cheaper state university (in fact the same one as my girlfriend, we'll see if that turns out to be a good idea or not..) majoring in Physics and Math with a plan to teach one or both of them in the future at either the college or high school level. I figure that is something I can realistically do, as there isn't exactly a high demand for beginner neo-classical guitarists these days.

[Ninja Guitar]

Re: It look like I\'ve made to a new decision.

Thanks for all the relys, you guys rule!

Well, based on your replys, studio engineering may not be a good field for me. I'm going to start looking into career options outside music. If I can get a decent job that pays my bills and leaves me time to write and record my own music, that'll be awesome. I'll probably do some studio engineering stuff in the future, since I'll have the equipment, but obviously it'll just be available to people I know and am friends with. It won't be available to the general public. Teaching private guitar lessons is also a good way to scratch money.

[jgcable]

Re: It look like I\'ve made to a new decision.

Unless you own the studio, no job working for a studio is a good paying job that will afford you all the things you are looking for. Engineering is long hours and crap pay. Most engineers either live home with their parents or their wife is the breadwinner or at least brings home lots of bread.
Engineers usually aren't married and if they are they usually don't have kids. The hours prohibit it. Teaching guitar is no way to make a living unless you are a professor at Berkley. That "follow your dreams" crap that is spewed by already famous people is just that.. crap. Unless you have serious fallback money or a rich family you simply can't chase your dreams forever. For male guitarist's it is usually around 26 that the financial biological clock starts ticking loudly. It got jumpstarted for me when at 26 when my non musical friends had all graduated college for a few years now and the majority of them had pretty sweet jobs. I, being the supreme metal head, worked at the Greenwich Car Wash with the rest of my bandmates and we used to wash their cars.
The music business has been the best and the worst thing that could have ever happened to me career wise. If somebody had only told me I had a better chance hitting the lottery than making it in the music business... oh.. I forgot... they did tell me but I was too busy spending my hard earned car wash money recording, making demo;s, gigging and putting up upcoming gig posters on every telephone pole in town.

[pro-fusion]

Re: It look like I\'ve made to a new decision.

Ninja, back in the early '90s I went through almost the exact dilemma you are going through now--only I did so after getting a functionally useless bachelor's degree in History.

I studied recording engineering at a trade school in L.A., and discovered that being a studio engineer basically sucks for several reasons:

1. You don't make sh!t for money. Back in '90 or so, the average First Engineer on a session (typically a jingle date or some such humdrum) was only pulling down about $10 per hour. I'm sure that's higher now, but probably still not too great. And it takes quite awhile to get called up as a first engineer--before that, you'll be seconding sessions for several years at just above minimum wage (or even for free). [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Sure, there are a handful of highly sought-after engineers for album projects who pull down big $$, plus all of the drugs/chicks surrounding such a project, but that is far from the norm--I suspect you'd find it easier to become a successful musician.

2. Yeah, you are involved in the music biz, but you never lose the feeling that YOU ARE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE MIXING BOARD!! The guys in the iso booth are having all the fun, while you are having to twiddle around with a bunch of knobs and faders. Plus, you might as well just stamp the word "geek" on your forehead, in the eyes of the musicians in the room.

3. The rise of the home and project studios in the 1990s largely meant the death-knell for the career of recording engineer. Basically, musicians and producers are doin' it for themselves now, and they don't want to pay you to do it for them. The traditional art of recording engineering mostly had to do with maintaining/operating balky and unfriendly tape machines, and having a deep understanding of how to get acoustic sounds onto tape. Most music is electronic now, and that stuff is dirt simple to record--even electric guitars--by comparison.

Now, as far as your dilemma goes, here's my pet saying: "music is a great hobby and a horrible way to try to make a living." After a year in L.A., I was making just above minimum wage and had begun to hate music. I met some of the most amazing musicians on earth--including a couple of semi-names--and they were struggling just to get by. Meanwhile, the talentless hacks were being showered with record company money. I realized after awhile that it was the music I was interested in, not the music business. You sound like you would be the same way.

Go find something else to do for a living. Hey, no job is totally fun and enjoyable--otherwise no one would get paid to do it! But there are a lot of careers out there that will at least provide you with a sense of satisfaction, even if they aren't really "fun." You can go out and accomplish stuff--build things, design things, plan things, write things. Add to the world in some fashion apart from music.

Go to college. You don't have to declare a major right away (in fact, many colleges won't let you do that), so you've got some time to try different subjects out and find something that interests you. Just as important, investigate options like junior-college or four-year state public universities that will let you do all that without costing an arm and leg. I parlayed my useless History degree from a public university into a law degree from a private school, on which I unfortunately spent about a zillion dollars that I'll be paying back until I'm an old man. Don't do that unless you have to. State schools are a lot cheaper and provide you with great opportunities, unless you think you have to be a Big Cheese and go to Harvard/Yale or something...

I still enjoy recording my own music on my own terms, and I've never regretted turning my back on a career in the biz. I don't relate to the mainstream rock/pop music of today, and the biz doesn't have much use for old fukks like me, anyway! The only unforgivable sin in the entertainment industry is to get old and out-of-fashion--and that's just a little difficult to avoid. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Ninja Guitar]

Re: It look like I\'ve made to a new decision.

After thinking heavily on this subject the past couple days, I'm really starting to understand what you guys are saying. Music is a passion of mine, especially metal. I want to keep it that way. If I made a career out of it, I'd more than likely have to do whatever's necessary to get my money to survive. That could very well burn me out. I don't want that. I want to work a job that I'm good at, that pays me well, and that I'll at times HATE. That way I can just make music as a true passion, without any compromise. It's brilliant, I can't believe I never realized it before. Unfortunetely I'll never be able to say that I really tried as hard as I could to make it in the music biz.

I'm still going to write and record my own music, and even sell CDs of it. I'm just not going to worry about making any money out of it. I'll use whatever cheap equipment I feel like (eliminating the whole "investment" factor), get only a small number of CDs made (like 100-200), and sell them for a rediculously low price (like $5). Friends of mine will get copies for free of course, as may many of you cool dudes.

[Firebird V]

Re: It look like I\'ve made to a new decision.

Like many here I did the same... Worked at a slum and thought I would make it. Opened for lots of big acts... Made shite for pay. Played every night of the week... Got burned out. Sold all my gear in almost one night walking out of the music factory where we used to rehearse. My bandmates thought I was crazy... They could not understand how I could give up and they mocked me for it... I went to college late and did not get started career wise until my very late 20's.... Cut the hair off. Stopped playing.. Got a degree. Got a job. A few years later I bought a guitar/amp and again started playing... A few years later a wife/kids/nice house/ money to buy gear... Have a nice little space of my own with a drum set and amps and everything I need in it. Very happy now. I play for just a hobby now but I am WAY happy. Yes. I miss the medium size venues/small packed clubs/ the lights.. the stage.... But I don't miss the bad times and long hours and false hopes that went with it.

The guys I used to play with never made it either and some of them finally chose the route I went and are happy now too. The others that did not are working in dead end minimum wage jobs and have nothing but anger inside for not thinking about 1...5....7...10 years into the future..

I wish I could have been a "made it" but I would not give up what I have now for the slim chance of trying to make it again. They were fun times but they were also very hard times too....

If you choose a career make sure you can pay your bills with it AND afford to do the things that will make you happy on your time off.

[Newc]

Re: It look like I\'ve made to a new decision.

Agreed. While I was nowhere near "making it", I did want it (and still do), but only if I can find a way to "cheat" the system that has for so long cheated good musicians - turnabout being fair play and all that.

Sound Engineering, as was stated, is a dying field as there are so many people who can do it but so few uses for it - mostly in film and TV. Actual music recording ain't gona happen. Most "big names" have an engineer who they are comfortable working with and will stick with them until "the end". Those guys also have their favorite underlings who will replace them one day with their full blessing because they are like a "mini-me" of said engineer/producer.

You wanna play Metal for a living? Find a more radio-friendly rock band and get in the line that Saliva and those guys have. Find something non-Metal that's popular and get into it and fight your way to the contract.
Put out one album of whatever the record label says you gotta put out and then do your Metal stuff on album #2.
Basically you'd do just the opposite of The Darkness.