Aquarium Question

[jgcable]

I have a 75 gallon tank set up Teneflex Acrylic) with 4 baby Jack Dempsey's in it. I had a very large Red Oscar who died from HITH around 3 months ago. I would like to get a new filter set up and a new heater. Any suggestions? I currently have a "hang over the side" filter and a completely submersed heater. I was thinking maybe I should go for an undergravel system or maybe one of those canister setups. I am also thinking about adding some other Cichlids like maybe a Green Terror and some Convicts. Any suggestions?

[charvelguy]

Re: Aquarium Question

Joe aquarist here.. at your service.
Define 'HITH" ...ahh, never mind, it just struck me. "Hole in the head disease"

Disease and death in a tank are certain signs of water conditions that are lacking upkeep. - no offense, I lost two cichlids and a catfish I had for almost 10 years this summer because of the water conditions got fouled and the system I was using didn't have the capacity to break down the waste. The problem? I added 5 goldfish (another whole story) But they are now about 7" long.

Oscars are pretty hardy creatures. I've owned a few but they are fish and cichlids are susceptible to disease.
So describe the mechanical filter and it's make and capacity if you would to start.

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: Aquarium Question

Oscars and many other large cichlids are prone to that disease. It can be accenuated by less than optimal water conditions, but I have seen it in very clean tanks.

You need two type of filtration basically, mechanical, which rids the water of debris. And you need biological filtration (like what an undegravel does), which breaks down the fish waste chemicals like ammonia and Nitrites etc, into somewhat harmless chemicals (nitrates) that you will get rid of by water changes.

Cichlids are diggers, and UG filters are prone to becoming useless or even dangerous if they open an area up from digging, and other areas of gravel lose flow and anaerobic bacteria get out of hand, begin to rot and pollute the water.

I'd consider (and what I use in my 75 gallon display) a cannister filter that includes a prefilter (to catch the debris) along with some type of media (sponge, bioballs etc) that will allow aerobic bacteria to to its job. I basically use a Marineland magnum 330 that has a 5" sponge in it that acts as the bacteria bed.

I also use a Marineland 350 Pengiun (I believe it is) over the side filter with those "biowheels" that aid biological filtration as well.

I do VERY well with that setup and thoroughly clean the tank every 9 months or so.

Check this site out for a TON of info, it's the JCF of the fishworld.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/index.php

[charvelguy]

Re: Aquarium Question

At one time I had like 9 tanks...couple 55's, mostly 20's and 30's for breeding pairs. I bred cichlids, (not just conivcts, but Tanganyikans and Malawian) I belonged to a local aqau society, even worked PT in a fish store. I've kept salt too.


In a freshwater 55, I currently use an Eheim canister, older one, a 2203 but it is for 40-60 gallons.. like a Fluval 3.
two outside hanging mechanical filters. One Penquin Marineland, and the other Second Nature. They're both for 30-50 gallon, they're about mid sized.

I run an undergravel filter with about 3" gravel and four towers.
I use crushed coral pieces to balance the PH.
PH is not ultra crucial for Oscars, but it does determine other factors in water condition and for Tanganyikans it is considered essential.
I then have one power head with a reverse flow filter pumping air into the filter and another with regular out. Both are marineland 1140's and they are on the outside towers.

The inner two towers are pumped with a Whisper 1000.
Since I've had this setup, I've had no problems.
When I moved, I skimped on setting up the eHeim and the powerheads and as a result.. I had disease problems because the undergravel filter wasn't efficient enough.

Disease could have been introduced by another element but on the whole, Cleve is right in that you would want to run both mechanical and biological filtration.

A functional breathing biological undergravel filter is essential for keeping large fish like Oscars, (which are pigs-personable, but pigs) Dempseys, Terrors, Red Devils, Severums and the like and breaking down the waste they produce.

[jgcable]

Re: Aquarium Question

The tank is good now. I think my Oscar got HITH from eating bad feeders. I mainly fed him large pellets but once a week I would throw some feeders in there. I have a Whisper hang over the side filter now. I think it is only a 500 and too small for the tank. It doesn't have a bio-filter wheel on it although one can be put on. I was thinking canister too and would like to get a set up used on Ebay. The pet store is just too expensive. My Oscar was a total slob. He ate like a horse and crapped like one too. I would like to do a better job filtering this time around. Can any of you fish guru's give me specific info on what I need for a canister system or the functional breathing biological undergravel system. I want to start shopping on Ebay for them.

[charvelguy]

Re: Aquarium Question

Used is fine. The main thing about used parts is the impeller assembly. The magnets get worn or cracked if they are not cared for properly. They'll rust and anything used in salt gets a abused even moreso. That is pretty much the heart of the system tho, so it is the most important and eBay has a good supply of this stuff new or lightly used for freshwater.

I have a Magnum 330, which is a decent canister filter, just the filters and the powdered charge for it can be expensive. I have not used it years.
I just bought a NEW AquaClear 5000 powerhead for 17.00 + 9.00 s&h, brand new powerhead for 26.00. The thing is huge, I could use it as a jacuzzi. Just the clip for hanging off the back was broke, other than that, it was new. I'll just glue it with Gorilla and it'll be strong. I can use it either way, hanging or not. I also bought 4.4lbs of premium flake food in a bucket for 19.00 from the same guy. Pellet food on eBay is waaaay cheaper by the bulk.

Anyways....with acrylic you want to be careful of scratching same as you would with glass.
When adding an undergravel filter, you want to heed that the floor surface is adequate to support the weight because adding all that rock and decor is going to increase the weight in additition to the water already there. 8.3lbs per gallong of water.

So, you'll want at least a 100lb bag of medium gravel. If I recall, you want 2 lbs per gallon for cichlids..but I think you can get by with a 3" base just fine and a hundred should cover that, so that is what you shoot for. Buying in a bulk content as such is alot cheaper than 5,10,20 lbs a shot.

Natural gravel is the best filter, red flint is what 'I' use, but you can mix it up and they have a few different colors. Coated gravel I would avoid and most 'colored/dyed' gravel is coated, but bacteria clings to that as well, it is just not considered as porous.

The gravel you can get at your local aqua retailer. Those types of fish like to dig as Cleve mentions, so medium grade is probably best. Even a botton layer of about 20 pounds of course grade (like a small marble) wouldn't be a bad idea, it is what I would do ideally but, that is open for opinion/debate and all one grade can work just fine also.

You can buy a Pennplax 'undertow' undergravel filter system on Ebay. They tend to get abused from gravel getting stuck in between the cracks and the towers getting twisted out sometimes crack the base, so look out for that but you should be able to score one for your tank in good used shape as well. A lot of this stuff is available thru the discounters or private parties on eBay. New thru them would be cheaper than local retail on the whole unless they were running a mega sale.


Now you have gravel, rinse it so it is no longer having all the fine dust and small sandlike particles/elements. Be careful, it also scratches bathtubs. When you dump it, you'll probably want a mask. Get a large colander and a five gallon pail and go to town. Pain in the ass and time consuming but it should be done with new gravel.

Now you want to aerate the filter bed. You have various types of methods; powerheads, or air pump, the later which are sub catagorized as vibrator pump, or piston pump. Piston pumps are noisy but were the preferred way for many years. I stray away from those now but they are good for deep tanks like 100's.

I recommend a second nature Supra 3-4 (now discontinued I believe) and a couple med. sized powerheads running four 1" wide tube towers.

The anerobic bacteria, nitrosomers and nitrobacters live off O2. Problem you'll have is that to establish an undergravel filter, it takes about a month for the bacteria to seed and establish and you typically call this 'cycling period' When a aquarium water turns all grey or white-cloudy after a water change.. that is a bacterial bloom. These bacteria are absorbing all the oxygen and your fish can asphyxiate. Something to know for future reference.

You can jump start it with chemicals.. and there is only one product I recommend for that... made by Marineland, called Bio Spira, that is considered to be a breakthrough in quick tank cycling -*read and follow the directions* [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I'm sure that I'll add more on this, but this should get you started. When you undertake this project, it'll take a few hours to rinse the gravel and get the tank setup...I'll talk more on that later. The tricky part is that you already have fish in the aquarium..I don't suppose you have a backup/hospital tank?

There are a load of websights and links on this topic on the internet. It's like choosing strings, picks or amps..everyone has a personal preference.

[ROCKPRO]

Re: Aquarium Question

I used to have a 75 gallon tank for Flipper. Flipper was a 3 year old Oscar, blind in one eye. I also had a separate 30 gallon tank for 100 - 300 gold fish for feed.

Flipper had a personality. When hungry he would jump and hit his head on the tank cover or just stare at me with gills flaring.

The tank was near to my drum set and flipper would watch us play and loved Rock music. He could do a few tricks. If I left the top open he would jump out! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Smoke rings flipped him out.

SET UP: One external top of the line POWERFUL "DYNA-FLOW" filter, that, combined with Flippers digging up the gravel would keep the tank clean. (Flipper scraped his eye as a youg fish on a rock and that is how he lost an eye).

The only luxury in the gold fish for feed tank was another POWERFFUL DYNA-FLOW brand filter which kept a circular current in the tank and kept gold fish moving in the currents and the water really clear, like Flippers. A few fish would win a "stay' of their ultimate fate if they could outsmart flipper for a week or more. I recall one named Jaws did.

I totally replaced flippers water just once a year. Of course the filter was cleaned 2-3 times a week. Flipper lived 15 years.. what a character.. Ill never forget that crunching sound when Flipper got one! Sometimes he would just bite the gold fish in half.. that required the net.
[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Those fish knew what was going on.

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: Aquarium Question

[ QUOTE ]
A functional breathing biological undergravel filter is essential for keeping large fish like Oscars, (which are pigs-personable, but pigs) Dempseys, Terrors, Red Devils, Severums and the like and breaking down the waste they produce.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are absolutely wrong. An undergravel is the worst possible biological filtration you could use for those fish. You need external bio filtration that can't be disturbed like an unergravel can. Once they are disturbed by a large digging fish, it is usless, and can even generate toxins from anaerobic pockets of wast that WILL form.

There are MUCH better ways to bio filter. Wet dry filters come to mind n a simple conceptualization. They outperform undergravels tenfold.

I used to breed cichlids for years and had 48 tanks at one time, some as large 240 fry holding tanks. So, I also have a good idea of this stuff.

Why you would want to use bubbles to run a filter that suck wastes into the gravel and keeps it there to rot is beyond me. If you must run an undergravel, the safest way to run one is reverse flow where where it pushes clean water from undernath through the gravel and helps disloge the waste for the mechanical filters to get.

It's just common logic. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[jgcable]

Re: Aquarium Question

So should I get something like the Magnum 330? My tank is already established. It has been for almost 4 years now. My Oscar died around 6 months ago and I haven't had any fish in it since but It has always been up and running. I just want to get an additional filter and a heater. I have a submerged heater but even when it is set on 82 my tank is only at 77 max. I really can't get it any warmer than that.
Is a filter like a Magnum 330 easy to set up. I just don't understand the concept of a canister filter. Where is the inlet and outlet tubes? Where do they go? Do they hang over the edge of the tank and are connected by hoses? Since may of you guys are really into it.. do you have any aquarium gear to sell? SHould I be looking for something like this? Fluval

What about this: Fluval

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: Aquarium Question

I personally can't say much about the Fluval stuff other than I don't quite like the way they are setup. But, not to say they aren't a good piece. They have a fan base and get good reviews it seems.

Ehiem is about the best stuff that is not astronomical. I use marineland as it is cheap and works "ok", I have done acceptably with it.

Here are some rating and reviews on some cannisters.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/reviews....php?CatID=104

Not sure "I'd" want used stuff myself, as you really don't know how many miles are really on it. and getting impellors etc can nickel and dime you. I like new stuff for the most part, but, that's just me.

As for the unit itself, the inlet and outlet tubes just hang over the side of the tank and are connected with hoses. Most are quite easy to setup.

With my magnums (I run two), I merely found a round sponge that is 6" deep and was made for some other (maybe a fluval!) filter. I cut a 1" hole through it for the tube and put it in the cannister with a peice of filter pad to prefilter it. That is most of my bio filtration, the rest is in the over the side filter, a marineland Penguin 300 with bio wheels. That filter isn't really needed too much though.

If your heater can't get it as high as you wish, you probably need a bigger one I'd venture. I have all EBO Jaeger submersible heaters, but I believe they are out of biz now. Not sure what I'd buy nowdays. I have a 300 watt one in my 75 and it does ok.

Lotsa knowledgeable peole here! You seem to be in good hand with advice!

[charvelguy]

Re: Aquarium Question

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A functional breathing biological undergravel filter is essential for keeping large fish like Oscars, (which are pigs-personable, but pigs) Dempseys, Terrors, Red Devils, Severums and the like and breaking down the waste they produce.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are absolutely wrong. An undergravel is the worst possible biological filtration you could use for those fish. You need external bio filtration that can't be disturbed like an unergravel can. Once they are disturbed by a large digging fish, it is usless, and can even generate toxins from anaerobic pockets of wast that WILL form.

There are MUCH better ways to bio filter. Wet dry filters come to mind n a simple conceptualization. They outperform undergravels tenfold.

I used to breed cichlids for years and had 48 tanks at one time, some as large 240 fry holding tanks. So, I also have a good idea of this stuff.

Why you would want to use bubbles to run a filter that suck wastes into the gravel and keeps it there to rot is beyond me. If you must run an undergravel, the safest way to run one is reverse flow where where it pushes clean water from undernath through the gravel and helps disloge the waste for the mechanical filters to get.

It's just common logic. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

...I do run a reverse flow which pumps into one end and another power head or airstone pumping out the other tube on each plate. Are you telling me this is ineffective?

Many breeders of cichlids do not use an undergravel. They also typically use sump setups. I acknowledge it isn't a necessity for diggers if you have an external system that can handle the filtering. Filter media is filter media, whether it is bio balls, stars, porcelain, sponge or combinations of the same. In most canister filters, you have a sponge media and the above mentioned biological media, the more porous, the better.
but I am "absolutely wrong" on all fronts.

You are correct in your facts that an undergravel system which is exposed or has trapped debris is a danger. I never disputed you in this because I had agreed. Do you think a two powerhead system with a supra 4 isn't going to move enough of the debris out from under the filter?

I typically do not see ciclids going through 3+ inches of gravel but they have been known to do it..you use a more natural habitat of larger rocks, slate, terra cotta pots etc...

Follow Johns advice or ask on an actual aqua forum.


They have a sand media box which can hang off the side of the aquarium which is great as a filter media.

...some overtones of animosity from some other issue dragging into this bud?

[SEEGERMANY]

Re: Aquarium Question

Hey John, I've had aquariums for over 20 years. I've raised damn near every tropical fish known to mankind, even a colossal fancy tailed Oscar that weighed almost 5 1/2 lbs when it croaked. I currently have a 150 gallon and a 75 gallon tank set up. The 150 has four Oscars and they are BIG!

My tanks utilize filter boxes for filtration. These are 4x4 boxes in the corner of the tank which pre-filter large debris, then allow the water to pass down through a hose into a smaller tank (20 gallons) filled with bio balls. A submersible pump pulls the filtered water from this tank back into the main tank. This is the system used by most professionals.

In your case, I suggest a cannister type filter with quick release connections. The intake and discharge hoses hang in one corner of the tank. It's been a long time since I've used these, so I really can't pinpoint the size you need. Rule of thumb, get the biggest filter you can afford.

As for your heater, same rule applies. Don't cut corners and get the best submersible you can afford. Place it over by the intake/discharge tubes so it won't be noticeable. By the way, 77 degrees is a damn good all around temp.

Finally, when raising big fish, remember that they piss and shit big too. The 25% water change doesn't cut it and I always change 50% of the water. The only chemical I use is Seachem pH 7.0 Neutral Regulator at the rate of one teaspoon per 10 gallons. This stuff is expensive, about $26 for 2 lbs, but it's great for water changes and water additions. It's a great softner and removes chlorine, chloramine, and amonia. Good stuff mang!

Opps, sorry for the novel. Holler at me if I can help.

[mm2002]

Re: Aquarium Question

John, the best way to maintain good water quality is with a wet/dry filter system and a protein skimmer. I'm no pro on Oscars, but I have maintained some very healthy salt water reef systems for the last 20 years. Under gravel & cannister filters both have one HUGE downfall, it's called lack of Oxygenation! Without the proper amount of oxygen present in aquarium water, nothing will ever work right. That's the key to good water quality, whether salt or fresh water. Only aerobic bacteria feed on the nitrites and ammonia, but they require Oxygen to survive. In the case of under-gravel filters and cannister filters,they tend to breed anaerobic bacteria (do not require oxygen to survive) and those bacteria feed on nitrates (basically dissolved organic wastes) but do nothing to reduce the nitrites and ammonia (of which nitrates are a product after break down). A wet/dry system incorporates mechanical filteration (usually a sponge), and biological filteration in which the water is mixed with air during the process (which is a haven to aerobic bacteria). The protein skimmer further oxygenates the water while removing the DOC's (dissolved organic compounds) (SHIT!)
If you want more details let me know, I'm not going to write a book here.

[SEEGERMANY]

Re: Aquarium Question

If all else fails, an M80 will provide oxygen to the tank along with an evening of wild excitement. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Cleveland Metal]

Re: Aquarium Question

Yes germandeth, I mentioned wet dry systems in my posts, but didn't mention sumps and all the stuff that goes with those systems as it doesn't seem what he needed right now. If you are succesfully running reef systems, then you know what is up for sure. I did that stuff when I was maried and lost the interest after that. I still want to do that with the 75 african tank in the front room though. I like technology and want a wet dry system for them.

Although I currently use cannisters, I also use an over the side filter with the wheels that help oxygenate the water as well as a power head that sits at the top level to agitate the surface even more.