Definition of Torture

[Baum83]

Re: Definition of Torture

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My definition of torture: Nirvana radio marathon

[/ QUOTE ]
farkin' A!!

BTW, great post Harrald [img]/images/graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Too bad nobody will listen to him.

[charvelguy]

Re: Definition of Torture

[ QUOTE ]
wow... what a thread...
a couple of weeks ago a newschannel, I thought NBC came with some footage of a patrol in after a fight and in a room where a couple of bodys lay one Iraqi guy was still alive and he was shot in cold blood by one of the members of the patrol. it seemed to me (mostly because of what the soldier said and the lack of action from the Iraqi guy) that the soldier had to revenge something or someone, or at least had something to deal with and turned that on the guy on the floor. anyway, he was relased from courtmarshall because he acted in self defense. according to the soldier the guy seemed to attempt to draw a gun, afterwards he was clearly not carrying.

my point here is, that the boundaries where the US soldiers are acting in, are rather loose if a guy like that is not courtmarshalled and convicted. What happened in the Abu Graib prison is simply stupid, why? The allies who are figting in Iraq are supposed to do that for the Iraqi people, to liberate them from the dictator Saddam and to put an end to the production or possible deploy of weapons of mass destruction. That was, as far as I remember, the couse of the war, or I might have missed one... In point 2 the inspectors failed to proof even the existence of these so called weapons of mass destruction and I am no expert, but the claims of both Blair and Bush seem to be at least exaggerated.
obviously the only point left is to bring peace, human rights etc etc to the poor inhabitants of the former by Hussein ruled country and if you want to keep up that appearance, you should behave in a way that support that claim and obviously those guys who we are talking about did not... so courtmarshall seems to me as proper; they damage the last of the goals of this entire campaign, and I don't give a ratts ass for excuses like pressure and orders and the grief of losing friends;
1 and 2 are conisered ethical and ethics are beyond the orders from your superiours, Ich habe es nicht gewusst and Es war ein Befehl are words we all know and their effects are also nothing new and the guys who defended themselves that way were also prosecuted in Neurenberg by the wartribunal. I am not comparing these two cases with the crimes of Nazi Germany, but only stating that those arguments were considered bullsh!t by the US government and the US lost considerably credit by the actions of those "soldiers" and should be consistent in its rulings and should rule by that standard, for both enemy and own forces.
2. that is the painful thing of being a soldier. I imagine most soldiers are professionals, not all, but most of them. they chose to be a soldier, signed a contract and should behave PROFESSIONALLY in a situation like that, losing friends, or comrades or whatever, they CHOSE to be in the army of one of the most warfaring countries in the world, so bear the conserquences.

just an European point of view

Harrald

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe you are referring to the incedent where the enemy was one of the wounded leaning up against a wall..and moaning inside a mosque. The soldier claimed he was 'faking it' and shot him. This was because he watched a buddy of his in the same unit get killed earlier in the week from a booby trapped body of another 'wounded' enemy who was either dead or near dead and blew himself up.

It is not standard procedure of the US to shoot the wounded.
We just take em to be tortured instead. (bad joke)

I believe the last I read that soldier was under investigation and relived of duty..and likely pending some disciplinary action. Anything like that, especially when it is aired by the media the world over is not going to be allowed.

I wasn't for this war to begin with, so I agree with much of your points, but I also figure that even tho this is a 'liberation' effort of restructure it has been warped past that. The resistance being faced exceeds what was anticipated and this is a 'liberation' we'll be waist deep in for a long time.

[Deneb]

Re: Definition of Torture

Funny how other countries view us. They actually see things that we fail to.

Amen to you guys, a-fawking-men.

[YetAnotherOne]

Re: Definition of Torture

For the record, Iraqi officials now state that WMD facilities existed and were systematically looted. That's from Chris Hitchens and the New York Times, they're hardly fans of the current US administration.

Regarding the incident Harrald described: at least set the proper situation when describing the incident. It happened during the large battle in Fallujah. Terrorists (illegal combatants fighting out of uniform and therefor subject to summary execution under the Geneva Convention) fighting from a mosque (another violation) were disarmed by a squad of Marines who had neither the time nor resources to care for the wounded and so left them in the mosque. More Marines entered the next day knowing only that there had been attacks from the mosque previously and the incident described ensued. The soldier who shot the wounded terrorist made a judgment call and a correct one IMHO. There's a word for soldiers who consider political correctness when fighting wars: dead. It's a war, people die in wars, end of story.

More interesting to me is the fact that a European nation would prosecute a soldier in a war zone for murder for what seems unquestionably an accidental death; criticize harshly the soldiers of other nations for killing a terrorist whose continued existence would only have brought about the death and suffering of innocents; yet seemingly approve wholeheartedly of the involuntary killing of children. There's something wrong when more value if placed on the life of a terrorist than the lives of one's own children. There is indeed moral rot and decay in the world Harrald but you need not look so far away as America to find the worst of it.

[txcharvel]

Re: Definition of Torture

[ QUOTE ]
they CHOSE to be in the army of one of the most warfaring countries in the world, so bear the conserquences.


[/ QUOTE ]

That makes absolutely no sense and paints a pretty good picture of your narrow view of the world. Warfaring country [img]/images/graemlins/scratchhead.gif[/img] go ahead and take the U.S. out of the picture. We have to play policeman for the world because nobody else wants to stand up for what's right and just. Are we perfect no, but we have choose our battles based on our best interests. If our security is at risk, that takes precedent. Hell, Europe can't even defend itself...ever heard of NATO. Where do you think all the muscle come from? It's not France

As for the Dutch soldier on trial for murder [img]/images/graemlins/bs.gif[/img] That is another perfect example of the backwards, twisted Euro-view on world events. It was a freakin' accident. In America we call that man-slaughter. The guy's a soldier, come on [img]/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

The war we are fighting right now is pretty much a "Sissy War". We are fighting a bunch of people dressed in civilian clothes who hide in mosques and schools using children as shields.

Let the soldiers do what they need to do. After all, they are the good guys.

[Deneb]

Re: Definition of Torture

I'll never disrespect our military. Can I disagree with the war we are fighting? Yes, but it's not the Army/Navy/Marine/Air Forces fault. It's another persons fault, so I dislike them, not our armed forces.

Personally, I think we should have just blew the fuck out of the middle east. I didn't vote republican, but I'll tell you one fucking thing right now. I would have re-registered as a Republican if our prez just turned the desert into a sheet of glass.

Torture them all day long, if that makes you feel better troops, go right the fuck ahead. After all, these people are the ones fighting for us, not vice versa.

[guitar geek]

Re: Definition of Torture

I am glad the reactions are thought over well and not just a by emotions driven story.

@txcharvel
first, I think I made it clear that I (and the rest of the entire community) thought it was complete rubbish that that particular sergean Eric was prosecuted. politics got involved and the department of justice made it a prestige matter and that is why he is still on trial and appealed to a higher court. It is madness, I agree with that, I really do.

by the way, I don't think the Europeans have a narrower vision of the world than you American guys have. Everyone thinks within his own boundaries of reference, that is natural, it only takes courage to look beyond those boundaries, I hope you agree with that. I know European politics are too much talk and too little action, and I also know you statement about Europe is partially true, but not even CLOSE to what you would like.

1. With warfaring I ment the country that fought the most wars in the last 60 years, what the reason is of that, I do not care, some wars were in the frame of the Cold War (Korea, Vietnam) against the communist thread, others had either strategic of some humanistic reasons or a blend of those. Again, I do not care for the reason, only stating the fact the USA fought the most wars of all countries, so my claim seems to be correct.
2. I know NATO, and I think NATO was beneficial for both Europe as the USA. Lets face it, if Europe had been ran over by the Red Army, the only Allied stronghold would have been England and that would have fallen within minutes and the US would have been isolated from the rest of the World. The only way of preventing that, was to bond together in Nato, creating at least the illusion of a strong defensive machine. My point here is, that it is NEVER as easy as you state it. I am certainly off pitch with some of the remarks here, because I try to nuance things, but have still my own frame of reference.
3. The USA has as far as I know the largest defence budget in the world so has the possibilities to take the role of policeman upon itself. The USA has the role, because it has 1 army, 1 huge budget, 1 central commandpost etc. Europe is still a bunch of countries with a limited budget, a scattered command, and a lot of different military traditions and a LOT of political disorientated bullsh!t; If I would have been a soldier, there are some armies I definately do not want to work with, within Europe. We don't have the muscle YET to act, we might have in the future to come. By the way, I hope "captain Bush" of the WorldPD will act conserquently and busts both Iran and North Korea, because there are some bad guys over there BEGGING to be locked away (and for the record, I'd really like Europe to participate in those wars as well, to be at least deputy).

For the guy in the Mosk who was shot, I thank the maker of the remark about his fellow soldier who was boobytrapped. I really feel sorry about that, that is for all lives that are spilled in war, but that is what I ment by professionally behaviour. The shooting solder was by the way pardoned by courtmarshall, it was a few weeks ago in the news here in europe. It might not have been an issue of such magnitude in the USA, in the Netherlands it was, especially compared to Eric O.
The guys with towels around their heads, walking around in dresses with underneath that bombs are what we called in the Netherlands during the second world war the "resistance" who fought as well without uniforms and with hit and run techniques and were supported by the Allies and are fight the same way the Mudjahedien in Afghanistan fought in the '80 agains the Sovjets and were supported by the USA. You say you liberated Iraq from a guy without conscience and so do I see it as well, these guys think you are occupiers, who only care for oil and want you out, that is all. Add some religious distorted ideas and you have your terrorists, who call themselves resistance. again, I'm trying to create a picture here, not judging anything, neither the USA nor the Iraqis fighting with their "sissy" tactics (it is the only way of fighting against a way stronger enemy, try to keep that in mind, a way the CIA might even tought them, which is off course the ultimate irony and really sad), only observing and trying to make a completer story and a completer story that is more correct to the facts. I feel for both parties, I know the arabic culture a little bit (spent like 4 weeks in Egypt, have some Islamitic friends), I know the american culture better, I know the european culture very well and I'd say nobody is completely right and everyone is wrong at least at some point here, there is only a degree in being right or wrong and those might be extreme in difference, but I'd say in this situation it is more nuanced.

hope this helps a little bit, and I hope I stepped out my limited point of view a little bit and hope everyone else will realize that he has his limitations in seeing things.
[img]/images/graemlins/toast.gif[/img]

Harrald

[jjw]

Re: Definition of Torture

[ QUOTE ]

And for the record Bush is a Fn (unt [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah? Well i dont see him walking around in NAZI UNIFORMS. [/quote
no but he looks fucking sweet in his monkey suit [img]/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

lol you must be royal hater,jezz get over it mate-comedians have worn nazi suits with hardly any problems and harry choose to wear one at a private party!Big fn deal

Bush may not wear a nazi uniform but i do believe his grandfather had no problems making money with the german regime during the 2nd world war [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Deneb]

Re: Definition of Torture

This I didn't know.

@guitar geek, well spoken.

[toejam]

Re: Definition of Torture

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
While I am a diehard Python fan, that was the absolute dumbest allusion to the Iraqi prison "scandal" I've seen yet.

#1 - These prisoners were mostly known terrorists who were fingered by their own stoolies.
#2 - The rest were known terrorist supporters and collaborators who were also fingered by a stool pigeon.
#3 - They were not US Citizens by birth or naturalization, and have no Civil, Legal, Moral, Human, or Miranda Rights which the US Constitution might protect.

They were made to feel "less like men". Gee, maybe we shoulda just doused them with jet fuel and set them ablaze? Maybe pushed them out of 45th story windows? How about slitting their throats with box cutters? Or better yet, putting them in a plane and crashing them into a building.

Anyone who feels those terrorists were mistreated by being chained to a bed and made to wear their (or someone's) Fruit Of The Looms on their face or be humiliated by women or other men should be shot dead and pissed on. Fuckin pinko sympathizer commie bastards.
I guess America deserved 9-11-01, huh?

Push the fukkin button, Dubya.

[/ QUOTE ]


+ fukin 1!

[/ QUOTE ]
+ 2!

[Badseed]

Re: Definition of Torture

So, you can call my president whatever you want, but i need to have a sense of humor for your prince? [img]/images/graemlins/bs.gif[/img]

I dont hate the royal family, could care less, youd think they would see a dentist more often tho [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Look, your guys are doing the right thing, stand behind them , its the least you can do.Blair is a great guy, atleast he the fortitude to stand up to terrorism, unlike the french, german, and russian governments.