MAMPA Petition

[Carbuff]

Re: MAMPA Petition

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Also, I've heard people mention that bar owners pay ASCAP a fee so cover bands can play in their establishments. I'm going to ask a few that I know about that because I'll bet that is an internet rumor. I find it hard to believe.

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Where I work we were getting sued by ascap for playing the radio in the restaurant. We eventually got a muzak system and the fee covers the ascap shit. What a bunch of crap.

[khabibissell]

Re: MAMPA Petition

I guess this is happening sooner than I thought. I'm speechless...

http://www.macclesfield-express.co.u..._a_fiddle.html

[guitarsjb]

Re: MAMPA Petition

Oh my...add me to the speechless list [img]/images/graemlins/brow.gif[/img]

[Soap]

Re: MAMPA Petition

It won't fly.
PRS is desperate and if they continue such practices they will belly up very quickly.
Protest them, don't buy, stock or endorse anything of theirs.

[khabibissell]

Re: MAMPA Petition

People didn't think that the tab thing would fly either...

[YetAnotherOne]

Re: MAMPA Petition

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It's obvious that you are a lawyer from your posts.

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For the purpose of this discussion that's exactly what I am not. Think of me more as an intellectual property consultant whose expertise is developing business models to commercialize IP in high-piracy networked environments. But do keep in mind that it's 99% of lawyer who give the rest a bad name. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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My point to all this is, that using the logic defined in the suit and your posts, EVERYONE that posts a tab, cover song, etc... should be prosecuted. Do you disagree? Why aren't ALL violators prosecuted? Simple, there is no money in it. They are only going after the most easily accessible and public violators... the ones that will recoup them the most return. Talk about hypocrisy...

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There are a lot of strategic reasons to engage in litigation. When considering the issue most people stop with the first-order analysis you did above: the only folks who get sued are the ones it's profitable to sue. That's often the case but I'll suggest that another very valid reason is to change the calculus in the minds of folks who've become accustomed to pirating works they wish to possess.

Consider, for example, RIAA’s extremely high-profile campaign against users of file sharing networks. Think it would be profitable to actually engage in litigation against all of the folks they name in their suits? Probably not though they may be breaking even on the campaign since virtually all of the suits settle. If they’re not making money why are they persisting in ticking off their customer base? The point isn’t merely to recoup actual damages from the pirates, it’s to slow the pace of piracy by making piracy appear more risky and potentially costly to folks who would consider pirating works.

I don’t buy the idea that it’s hypocritical to sue some infringers but not others. Consider the personal property analog: you shell out $150k for a shiny new Porsche 911 Turbo S Cabriolet; $5k for a top-shelf stereo system; and $5 for a used CD of your favorite tunes. The first day you own the car you drive it to the gym and leave it parked outside with the windows down. While you’re working out the gym’s security camera catches A stealing the CD from your car, B stealing the stereo, and C stealing the car itself. Assume you have no insurance, the stolen goods were immediately sold and moved out of the US, and the only way for you to recover damages for the thefts in your jurisdiction is via civil litigation against each thief. You shop around and find a law firm that specializes in recovery from thieves, they’re the cheapest firm in your state but they charge a flat fee of $25,000 per case and no firms will take theft recovery cases on contingency. You will, of course, have to pay your attorney’s fees out of your own pocket because that’s how our system works. You have the following options:

Option 1: Sue A, possibly recover $5, spend $25,000, net -$24,995.
Option 2: Sue B, possibly recover $5000, spend $25,000, net -$20,000.
Option 3: Sue A & B, possibly recover $5005, spend $50,000, net -$44,995.
Option 4: Sue C, possibly recover $150,000, spend $25,000, net $125,000.
Option 5: Sue A & C, possibly recover $150,005, spend $50,000, net $100,005.
Option 6: Sue B & C, possibly recover $155,000, spend $50,000, net $105,000.
Option 7: Sue A, B, :& C, possibly recover $155,005, spend $75,000, net $80,005.

All of the choices are bad as none restores you to your original position but the most rational option is, of course, #4 because it stands the best chance of putting you as close to your original position as possible. If your litigation strategy is based solely on financial considerations you’d choose that one every time. Obviously it makes no sense to go after A or B in any of these scenarios because the only person who wins when you do is your lawyer.

That said there are situations where options 5, 6, or 7 would make sense, most commonly when you want to make an example of these folks by forcing them to pay restitution for the thefts in an attempt to discourage similar thefts by others. I’ll suggest that this is the concept behind the RIAA and forthcoming MAMPA campaigns. When you want to litigate you don’t announce the fact that you’re going to do it, you just draw up a complaint and serve it on the bad guys. When you see high profile public announcements that litigation campaigns are about to commence what you’re seeing is a PR campaign, in this case one aimed at reducing piracy.

Back to your original point: are you a hypocrite if you choose any of options 1-6 above rather than option 7? By your logic you are but that’s a silly assertion when it’s obvious that a rational person would choose option #4 100% of the time.

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The thing of it is, these lawyers are being selective... Every guitar teacher should be fined... every one that has posted a cover on the internet should be fined... hell, every time I play a riff or song that I didn't write while practicing is a violation going by that logic.

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It’s the owners of the copyrights that are being selective and I hope it’s obvious by now that they have every right to do so just as you would be perfectly justified in seeking restitution from A, B, and/or C in my example above.

Without filling in the particular circumstances of the situations you rattle off there’s no real way to state with any certainty whether any or all would be infringements but there’s no doubt that if the copyright owner believes they are they would be well within their rights to test that belief in court.

Though it’s neither here nor there, “fined” is the wrong word as it calls to mind a minor infraction of the rules for which a small monetary penalty is assessed as with, for example, traffic tickets. Infringements are more in the mold of thefts similar to a scenario in which an unknown person strolls through your front door, removes all of the money from your wallet, and strolls back out.

[Chrisb]

Re: MAMPA Petition

Someone playing a riff from your song in a music store is hardly comparably to B&E, Brad.

This tab thing while I don't agree with it has some legal standing, thats all fine and dandy but where does it end, that story that was linked a few posts back is an example of how far this ridiculousness can go. At some point common sense has to prevail here. Pretty soon poor Johnny won't even be able to play a guitar riff from Band A in his basement without paying a fee first, wether he owns a legitimate tab or wether he learned the song by ear.

And comparing downloading a tab found on the internet to breaking in and taking something small from a house is a bad analogy. Its more like walk into a unlocked house, finding a small object of little value but undeniably owned by the occupant, drawing a sketch of said object, taking it home and attempting to reconstruct said object yourself. THAT is a accurate analogy. Because that is in essence what most net tabs are. If you download a tab and play it note for note and expect it to be completely accurate your not to smart, they are guides to basic path of a song, most of the time you have to make your own adjustments to get the song to where it needs to be.

Its also nice to know that people support the music teachers of America by calling them thieves. Cause I know my music teacher would tab any song I wanted back when I was taking lessons then would try and teach it to me.

What it comes down to is that every time something like this happens your limiting who can play music. We want more kids to discover the joy of playing an instrument to think critically about music, if we say its only for people who can afford it that sends the worst message possible.

Praise the almighty dollar right?

[Freyr]

Re: MAMPA Petition

I dunno, in my eyes tabs are getting way overrated now adays, most people aren't developing their ear like the bands of ol' used to do and it really shows. But at the same time, shutting down online sites because they have tabs or lyrics is kind of extreme. Like Chris just said "Pretty soon poor Johnny won't even be able to play a guitar riff from Band A in his basement without paying a fee first, wether he owns a legitimate tab or wether he learned the song by ear." I think that sums it up extremely well.

I signed the pention, even though it might not do anything, atleast it puts a voice out there, and we all do know that tabs will never disapear. Look at music piracy, it's still going as strong as before, only in more underground places, tabs and lyrics will go the same way... you'll end up downloading full albums of tabs from bit torrent, which is rediculous (it's happening already).

If a band doesn't want someone playing their music, then don't make it, infact, never play shows or even acknoledge that you play an instrament, don't record your music ever either... just play it at a band practice once a month and make sure no-one hears you, because that catchy riff shouldn't be played by anyone else.

Oh how Capitalism spirals...

[OnlineStageGear]

Re: MAMPA Petition

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You can't have your actors sing "happy birthday" in a movie without paying time warner $10,000 for the right to do so.

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This is true. Any time there is a movie that it is sang in, you will see three ladies in the credits. They sued about 10 years ago and now have the copyrights to that song. That's also why a lot of restaurants have their own versions of the song they sing to customers.

Matt

[SeventhSon]

Re: MAMPA Petition

All you guys that are up in arms ought to rent the documentary The Corporation.

Did you know that recently Bechtel arranged with the government of Bolivia to privatize their water supply? It became illegal for peasants to gather rainwater. This eventually led to the overthrow of the Bolivian government.

Corporations are trying to make every *thing* on this planet, whether it be physical or intellectual, subject to ownership rights. Even the gene sequence in your DNA, you don't have the right to. The pharaceutical industry is taking out patents on all the useful gene sequences in your DNA as they discover them.

Lawyers are the wrong target. They are simply enforcing the laws on the books. You ought to see the process by which these laws get on the books. Yep, it was a corporation that changed long standing patent laws that living things could not be patentable. As a corporation, I can own a species of animal!

[jjw]

Re: MAMPA Petition

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I guess this is happening sooner than I thought. I'm speechless...

http://www.macclesfield-express.co.u..._a_fiddle.html

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they can fuck right off!Greedy money grabbing bastards-everything is being turned into a money grabbing scheme. what next?
give your missus a facial and you owe peter north a few quid [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Shawn Lutz]

Re: MAMPA Petition

I never found a tab that close enough to being right to consider it illegal [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Tabs do not dictate tempo, time or key. If they drop the standard notation they it should be legal imho...

[noodlesatf]

Re: MAMPA Petition

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http://www.macclesfield-express.co.u..._a_fiddle.html

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That is one of the stupidest things I've ever read. I normally try out gear by playing riffs that *I* wrote. Does this mean that if I try out a PRS, the music store had to pay a fee for the right for me to play my own music? [img]/images/graemlins/bs.gif[/img]

[jjw]

Re: MAMPA Petition

no its the performance Rights Society!the guitar company couldnt and wouldnt do this..lol

[Freyr]

Re: MAMPA Petition

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I never found a tab that close enough to being right to consider it illegal [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Tabs do not dictate tempo, time or key. If they drop the standard notation they it should be legal imho...

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Yeah, tab books are usualy more-so wrong then tab sites too. I don't know why you'd have to buy the 'officall' tabs when they're offically wrong.