WTF is going on in Chicago? Richard Daley=NAZI

[YetAnotherOne]

Re: WTF is going on in Chicago?

[ QUOTE ]
Can I draw a cartoon of the prophet

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If you do I'll prove that I'm peaceful by cutting your head off and burning down your embassy. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[SeventhSon]

Re: WTF is going on in Chicago?

[ QUOTE ]
again if you have nothing to hide what is the problem?

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That's right. So why doesn't Cheney release the meeting notes between him and all the executives from the oil companies? Why doesn't Bush release all the pictures and details of him and Abramoff? If they have nothing to hide, what's the big deal? [img]/images/graemlins/eviltongue.gif[/img]

It is really sad when privacy in non national security matters is a right jealously asserted by a government, yet conveniently dismissed when it applies to ordinary citizens who are, ironically, the ultimate authority for a democratic government.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither..." - Benjamin Franklin

in recent news...

http://prorev.com/2006/02/homeland-s...er-library.htm

[RacerX]

Re: WTF is going on in Chicago? Richard Daley=NAZ

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hopefully nothing you do EVER crosses the line in any way, of course none of you break any laws of any kind at any time - right?

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That's right, I don't.

[SeventhSon]

Re: WTF is going on in Chicago? Richard Daley=NAZ

http://www.boiseweekly.com/gyrobase/...d=oid%3A158729

[hippietim]

Re: WTF is going on in Chicago? Richard Daley=NAZ

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http://www.boiseweekly.com/gyrobase/...d=oid%3A158729

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That's great. Our department of homeland security budget has a slot for someone to patrol parking lots for bumper stickers in Idaho. Brilliant.

[YetAnotherOne]

Re: WTF is going on in Chicago? Richard Daley=NAZ

Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help you.

[hippietim]

Re: WTF is going on in Chicago? Richard Daley=NAZ

I'm glad I don't work in the defense industry anymore. Can you imagine the outrage at my Kiss and Vai stickers?

[RacerX]

Re: WTF is going on in Chicago? Richard Daley=NAZ

Wow, that reporter was quite persistent and detailed.

[Shawn Lutz]

Re: WTF is going on in Chicago? Richard Daley=NAZ

damn...lookin way deeper into this than it needs to be....I guess if this is allowed than you'll be required to have full body cavity search before you step outside your front door. Damn the man is ruining my way of life [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Mrs Tekky]

Re: WTF is going on in Chicago?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
again if you have nothing to hide what is the problem?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's right. So why doesn't Cheney release the meeting notes between him and all the executives from the oil companies? Why doesn't Bush release all the pictures and details of him and Abramoff? If they have nothing to hide, what's the big deal? [img]/images/graemlins/eviltongue.gif[/img]

It is really sad when privacy in non national security matters is a right jealously asserted by a government, yet conveniently dismissed when it applies to ordinary citizens who are, ironically, the ultimate authority for a democratic government.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither..." - Benjamin Franklin

in recent news...

http://prorev.com/2006/02/homeland-s...er-library.htm

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is the US is not a democracy, we are a democratic republic. The common citizen does not have the full ability to control what goes on. We vote for people to make decisions for us. We don't make the decisions. We don't even fully control the election of president.

I would never agree to the full and complete invasion of your life. Cameras in public places - or places competely open to the public are a different story. If you don't want someone to see you doing something - do it in your house with the doors closed and the shades drawn.

[SeventhSon]

Re: WTF is going on in Chicago?

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is the US is not a democracy, we are a democratic republic. The common citizen does not have the full ability to control what goes on. We vote for people to make decisions for us. We don't make the decisions. We don't even fully control the election of president.

I would never agree to the full and complete invasion of your life. Cameras in public places - or places competely open to the public are a different story. If you don't want someone to see you doing something - do it in your house with the doors closed and the shades drawn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The ordinary citizen is the ultimate authority in a democratic government...govt by/for/of the people. We exercise our authority by voting. But for voting to be effective, there needs to be adequate transparency in government issues that allow us to asses how effective our elected leaders are. Yet, when this government classifies more material and is more secretive and utters more doublespeak more than any other previous administration...all in the name of executive privilege... you're right, they can control the electoral process.

If privacy is reduced simply what you do behind closed doors, then it's not long before:

1. the type of food you buy determines your life insurance risk
2. where you drive on public roads is public
3. ad infinitum.

I suspect that most members on this board would be outraged if a government official went snooping through your garbage after it got picked up and documented your consumibles into a public website. Yet, that is the society that you accept if you define privacy as to what you do behind closed doors of your home. And what if you rent? lol.

I feel that the vast majority of my activity performed in the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness, whether done in outside or behind closed doors is my own damn business. It is not a free society if the government compels you to disclose where you drive, what you buy, etc.

I suspect that our founding fathers would turn over in their graves after hearing how so many Americans today are willing to roll over and give up hard won freedoms and rights.

[Mrs Tekky]

Re: WTF is going on in Chicago?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem is the US is not a democracy, we are a democratic republic. The common citizen does not have the full ability to control what goes on. We vote for people to make decisions for us. We don't make the decisions. We don't even fully control the election of president.

I would never agree to the full and complete invasion of your life. Cameras in public places - or places competely open to the public are a different story. If you don't want someone to see you doing something - do it in your house with the doors closed and the shades drawn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The ordinary citizen is the ultimate authority in a democratic government...govt by/for/of the people. We exercise our authority by voting. But for voting to be effective, there needs to be adequate transparency in government issues that allow us to asses how effective our elected leaders are. Yet, when this government classifies more material and is more secretive and utters more doublespeak more than any other previous administration...all in the name of executive privilege... you're right, they can control the electoral process.

If privacy is reduced simply what you do behind closed doors, then it's not long before:

1. the type of food you buy determines your life insurance risk
2. where you drive on public roads is public
3. ad infinitum.

I suspect that most members on this board would be outraged if a government official went snooping through your garbage after it got picked up and documented your consumibles into a public website. Yet, that is the society that you accept if you define privacy as to what you do behind closed doors of your home. And what if you rent? lol.

I feel that the vast majority of my activity performed in the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness, whether done in outside or behind closed doors is my own damn business. It is not a free society if the government compels you to disclose where you drive, what you buy, etc.

I suspect that our founding fathers would turn over in their graves after hearing how so many Americans today are willing to roll over and give up hard won freedoms and rights.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your car insurance rates are determined by how much and how far you drive. Your health insurance premiums are effected by your health history and whether you are a smoker. Your garbage, once put on the curb for disposal, is public - that's why the police can go through your garbage on the curb without a warrant.

If you are out in the public, anyone can see what you do, hear what you say. How is it that you still think you have privacy there?

And no, as a citizen we cannot force our representative to vote the way the the majority has. The Electoral College can vote the opposite. We are merely making suggestions. Like I said, we are a Democratic Republic not an actually Democracy like everyone thinks - there is a difference.

And incase you didn't know, may states are already using cameras on the interstates and around construction sites to watch and tickets law breakers.

When you are walking down the road, you don't have a right to drop your pants and flash the drivers - that's defined as indecent exposure. If you are having a cell phone conversation as you walk down the street, you don't have an expectation of privacy from the people you are walking past - you are voluntarily speaking where others can hear.

I am not and have never said it was right for every aspect of your life to be spied upon. But if having a camera in my neighboodhood helps protect me and gives me the freedom to once again walk down the street without fear, I'm all for it.

[Tetsuo]

Re: WTF is going on in Chicago?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem is the US is not a democracy, we are a democratic republic. The common citizen does not have the full ability to control what goes on. We vote for people to make decisions for us. We don't make the decisions. We don't even fully control the election of president.

I would never agree to the full and complete invasion of your life. Cameras in public places - or places competely open to the public are a different story. If you don't want someone to see you doing something - do it in your house with the doors closed and the shades drawn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The ordinary citizen is the ultimate authority in a democratic government...govt by/for/of the people. We exercise our authority by voting. But for voting to be effective, there needs to be adequate transparency in government issues that allow us to asses how effective our elected leaders are. Yet, when this government classifies more material and is more secretive and utters more doublespeak more than any other previous administration...all in the name of executive privilege... you're right, they can control the electoral process.

If privacy is reduced simply what you do behind closed doors, then it's not long before:

1. the type of food you buy determines your life insurance risk
2. where you drive on public roads is public
3. ad infinitum.

I suspect that most members on this board would be outraged if a government official went snooping through your garbage after it got picked up and documented your consumibles into a public website. Yet, that is the society that you accept if you define privacy as to what you do behind closed doors of your home. And what if you rent? lol.

I feel that the vast majority of my activity performed in the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness, whether done in outside or behind closed doors is my own damn business. It is not a free society if the government compels you to disclose where you drive, what you buy, etc.

I suspect that our founding fathers would turn over in their graves after hearing how so many Americans today are willing to roll over and give up hard won freedoms and rights.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whereas I see both sides this is the level that scares me. What stops the gov't from going this extra step? Nothing really nothing at all. Once we give an inch they will assuredly take a yard. Still I want less crime and safer streets.

[SeventhSon]

Re: WTF is going on in Chicago?

[ QUOTE ]

Your car insurance rates are determined by how much and how far you drive. Your health insurance premiums are effected by your health history and whether you are a smoker. Your garbage, once put on the curb for disposal, is public - that's why the police can go through your garbage on the curb without a warrant.

[/ QUOTE ]

All true and in the case of auto/life insurance fairly reasonable. You are, after all, engaging in a private contract for services that require you comply with terms and conditions. However, it is NOT the government's right to know where I drive or what I buy. Regarding the garbage, setting up video cams in supermarkets is equivalent to passing a law that prevents you from burning your garbage. In either case, the government is asserting its right to know what you buy.

[ QUOTE ]

If you are out in the public, anyone can see what you do, hear what you say. How is it that you still think you have privacy there?


[/ QUOTE ]

If I meet with a friend on the street and I tell him about my "legalize pot" opinion, I don't think it's reasonable for the government to set up a boom mike to pick up on that conversation.

[ QUOTE ]

And no, as a citizen we cannot force our representative to vote the way the the majority has. The Electoral College can vote the opposite. We are merely making suggestions. Like I said, we are a Democratic Republic not an actually Democracy like everyone thinks - there is a difference.


[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent points. But it doesn't mean we should surrender the ideal: a transparent democratic *republic* where the citizens can make informed *suggestions*.

[ QUOTE ]

And incase you didn't know, may states are already using cameras on the interstates and around construction sites to watch and tickets law breakers.

When you are walking down the road, you don't have a right to drop your pants and flash the drivers - that's defined as indecent exposure. If you are having a cell phone conversation as you walk down the street, you don't have an expectation of privacy from the people you are walking past - you are voluntarily speaking where others can hear.

I am not and have never said it was right for every aspect of your life to be spied upon. But if having a camera in my neighboodhood helps protect me and gives me the freedom to once again walk down the street without fear, I'm all for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never tried to imply that government attempts to prevent illegal activity should be prevented. And for the record, I agree with cameras in documented high crime areas. So we have no disagreement there.

What I object to is American citizens apparently willing to casually surrender their privacy rights. I object to government attempts to provide security at the expense of, or the risk to, my right to privacy.

[Mrs Tekky]

Re: WTF is going on in Chicago?

Kinda off subject - but I have to say this has been a really good discussion - nice to see people using their heads and really thinking about thing!

I think one of the scariest things is that people really don't know what kind of video taping is actually going on. In some states, it's not illegal for someone to set up video recordings in your home as long as they don't tape the audio. The only thing you could get them on is breaking and entering.

The kind of things that are currently not illegal for anyone or even the government to do is really scary. I found out a lot of stuff when I was stalked and attacked by a serial rapist. The guy was able to run my license plates.

Like someone said - it's really easy to get information about anyone - in fact there are places that you can pay that will provide any living person's social security number.

I don't necessarily agree with the whole requirement to add cameras, but I don't necessarily see a problem with them being there. Unfortunately, we don't have all the information about where the tapes/medai will be stored, who will be able to see it, etc. And it is kind of shocking to see that the biggest concern is the cost of having to place the cameras.