Ok, I must have been living under a rock

[horns666]

..I know Rich, I do know what you mean..my grandma was like that for me..she was awesome..I could do NO wrong in her eyes..I miss her.

El Kabong..I do have "post traumatic stress disorder"..I would assume that some war vets and other cops go thru the same feelings I have..

Like I said ..some things that life throws at you will make or break some people..my convictions and beliefs are a direct result of those experiences.

I was in a shooting that my partner never got over..he's ruined for life..he's still on the job..but he hasn't worked a zone car since the night of March 23rd 1994...we went thru approx 90 rounds all together in that fire fight..some coming just inches from me..my wife was pregnant with Vinny at the time..He works the "office".. now..he should just go off on a medical (mental)..it's definitely warranted!

I went right back to the zone car right after our mandatory 90 day "administrative leave"..your assigned to the gym while the city prosecuter rules that it was a "good" shooting and after you passed a psyche evaluation..

I could have went back to work the next day..I knew what I did was necessary...I didn't lose much sleep that night..

You do and see all this crazy shit..and well you just get a whole new perspective on things...happened to me!

I know cops that went off the deep end in the opposite direction and became ministers..they read the Bible at Roll Call...and prayed before and after their tour of duty everyday..

All Good guys..just different mindsets..

I can't blame TV or "media"..I was never home to watch it..and when your a cop..you don't watch cop shows, you don't care about guns anymore and you definitely don't watch the news!!

[VitaminG]

I find it fascinating how most non Christians will go out of their way to slam Christ, or anyone who claims to be a follower of Christ. Wheather it be openly slamming him, or using his name as a cuss word. Two thousand years, and people are still spitting on him, and cussing him....why is that I wonder?

"most"? On what basis are you coming to that conclusion? Isn't that tarring "most" non Christians with the same brush, in the same manner that you accuse them of persecuting Christians?

Isn't it possible that many non Christians just don't give a shit either way? I'm non Christian and have never slammed anyone here for their decision to following whichever god pushes their buttons. I try to lead a good wholesome life, but without seeing a need to pledge my eternal allegiance to an unseen being of some higher order. Now if the morals that dictate my behaviour and the empathy I feel for my fellow man is a result of societal moors influenced by an inherit 'christianity' in the establishment, then so be it. I don't have to believe in the god that created the rule to decide that killing someone isn't a very nice thing to do.

Of course, the term "non Christian" encompasses anyone not of the Christian faith. So there are roaming gangs of Tibetan Monks, looking to lay waste to any Christian enclaves they find hidden in the Himalayas? Or Krishnas hanging out in airports, waiting to jump on anyone they think looks too "Christian"?

re: satanists acknowledging god - of course they do. If satan is a construct of the christian faith, they have to believe in the latter to follow the former.

The whole judgement day thing has interested me since I was a kid. I wonder, if all your life is replayed before you as you await judgement, does that mean I'll have to endure hour after hour of me beating my pud senseless? I've done it for more than half my life now. That's gonna make for some boring, repetitive viewing for all in attendance. So if any of my JCF Brethren find themselves in line behind me, I apologise in advance.

FWIW, I've seen heaven. Took the kids to see Ice Age 2 yesterday. It looked nice, but way too many acorns for my tastes.

[jjw]

well there are certainly a few good views here,i wouldnt say i agree with them but everyone is entightled to believe what they want too
Religion can be a great faith for some giving them what they need and a direction to go for in life,for others they might not need it.
There is nothing wierd about religious people either,sure they might devote time to worship and go to church but in modern days a lot of people might show the same devotion to a football team.Sign of the times
now FANATICS are where the trouble comes,they give religion a bad name.Be they bible bashing coke heads or flag burning arabs-anyone who says God speaks to them can not be honestly trusted

[horns666]

Hey Gary.."re: satanists acknowledging god - of course they do. If satan is a construct of the christian faith, they have to believe in the latter to follow the former."

I get that all the time..I do, even from my dad.

Satanism..the belief I follow..Satan is soley "symbolic"..he represents indulgence instead of abstinence..He represents strength instead of being humble and weak...he's vengeance instead of turning the other cheek ..all that kinda shit..

I could continue..but I think you got the point..

He's the symbol of anti-christian morals..

self worth, pride, love and preservation is essential.. you become your own God.

Your Birthday is the most sacred of all days..

That kinda stuff..

Satan for dummies..That's the book I should write!!!!

[horns666]

Yes Gary..not only you must watch those masterbating tapes on Judgement day..but the whole world watches them with you..all your family and friends:ROTF:

waite to you guys see what I did to that vase (Voz)..and that honeydew melon..and the couch cusions..and my mom's mink coat sleeve..and ..and..Oh man!!

I'm just giving you guys a "heads up"..:ROTF:

[Endrik]

I find it fascinating how most non Christians will go out of their way to slam Christ, or anyone who claims to be a follower of Christ. Wheather it be openly slamming him, or using his name as a cuss word. Two thousand years, and people are still spitting on him, and cussing him....why is that I wonder?

I haven't said ANYTHING bad about christians (because of their religion) or christ. I don't offend people in general, chirst was a human too (well almost as it is said) I didn't know him personally so I don't have any opinion about him.
I do offend Christians who are piece of shit as I do non-christians.

Or who it is we should worship? Jesus or God???
Or why not Allah, why god is real and Allah is not, or why not Zeus or Aphrodite or the Tree-Fairy. What makes one more real than the other, who is the one that decides what is right?
Why is God the MAN if there were many many other religions before Christianity.
You DO know that Islam is Christianity only modified? Islam works better because Muslims are more true into their religion. They know every friggin word in Quran COLD.

I can live with Christians but you know what, people like ME and BILL would have been killed a couple of centuries ago because we think differently. And that is a FACT.

[RacerX]

I don't know about you, but Bill would've definitely been burned at a stake or something!

[Endrik]

Drama queen. Seriously.

that's so typical.

All I'm doing is bringing out the facts.
Offending me personally is pretty damn weak.

There's always so many opinons and so little facts in these arguments.

As I said I was physicist and a biologist in high school and now I'm studing culture wich contains religon and history in university. I have a point of view from many different angles.
All my life is based on true facts and logic.

Religon was the enemy of science.
Every one was killed who belived the earth was like a basketball.
Church didn't allow to explore the secrets of anatomy, physics, geography and whatnot. Alltho some of the priests didn't obeyed the rules and were scientists themselves.
All the discoveries in science were done secretly because the scientists would have been killed. Church didn't even allowed to use Lydian mode in music because they thouth it was evil, what a fucking joke, Frank Zappa and Steve Vai would have been very unhappy back then
Without science, facts and logic we wouldn't have nothing.
Electric guitars, medicine, TVs, muscle cars, DVD players etc. are all made by scientists.
Most of the scientists didn't belived in god or weren't very serious about religion.

The best priests/reverends or whatever are down to earth people, totally into logic and sciense. The most serious god worshipping priests are jelaous and evil people.

[horns666]

"I don't know about you, but Bill would've definitely been burned at a stake or something! "


Ahhhhh that would ROCK!

I like E's point of view..I smile when I read his stuff..

[Endrik]

Yeah, I believed what my college professors told me about the world too - until I went out and LIVED in the world. As for atrocities all being done in the name of God, let's look at a few in history:

I belive a very few things what it is said. I'm not a blue-eyed student like some are who belive in every word. It's one of those "coolness things". Some people are into alternative culture and religion and start to take it very seriously and belive every word. I don't. I don't think that religions are cool at all.

And I do live in a real world.
It wasn't god who helped every student in my class to finish the high-school.
It wasn't god who kicked an dickwads ass who tried to rape a 16 year old girl.
It wasn't god who has risket his life to save my firends from getting beat up by gangs.
It wasn't god who tried to keep the forests clean form trash.
It wasn't god who helped young unconfident people to get over of their drug or alchol addiction.
And it wasn't definetly the god who helped me to recover from some of the sickest diseases.

It was all me, not god.

Josef Stalin was an athiest. Great humanitarian, he klilled 20 million of his own people by starvation, because the heavest wasn't enough to feed everyone and buy military hardware he wanted. So he let those people die a slow painful death by starvation. That doesn't count the labor camps and combatants killed in war.

You got that right, many people bash Hitler for all the shit.
Stalin was 1000000 worse.
He killed his own people, and he blamed the Germans for killing the Polish altho his army did it.
But His soviet forces occupied my country and they forced the religion to us.

The Mongol invasions of Genghis Khan were not motivated by religion but by sheer warlike traits of the Mongols

at first yes, after they defeated Tibet, they were turned into Buddhists.

Alexander the Great was not motiviated by religion, but by a desire to defeat the Persian Empire and conquer the known world.

actually Alexander was the Muslim's prophet

I'm sure others can bring up other examples, but I've made the point. The MOST casualty-causing wars of human history were caused and prosecuted by athiests, agnostics, or those who just didn't use it as their main cause.

Of course that doesn't mean these people didn't pray to their gods for victory or mercy in battle. That's not the same as saying it was done in the name of religion.

Most of the kills are still because of the religions, you named some wars. And most of them were around Europe. But remember the age of colonialism, all the shit was done in tha name of god. And there weren't no serious wars, the colonialists just went and destroyed the whole nations.

And in Asia a lot of warriors belived so stronly into their "god" or whatever they belived in, that they runned into a war and didn't scared nothing because they belived that nothing was gonna happen to them or the more meanlier they killed the better afterlife they have.

Even the Crusades were a defensive war. The Holy Land belonged to the Byzantine, or Eastern Roman Empire, which was a Christian nation. The Muslims came in and conquered Christian lands first. Christian nations had a choice of fight back, or face further invasions. Muslims ruled most of Spain for 800 years, which is why the Inquisition, ugly as it was,occurred. It in reality was Fernando and Isabel's consolidation of power in the united Spain they had just achieved by conquering the last Muslim kingdom in Spain. It was not as much of the Church, as that Chiurch officials under the Spanish throne's inffluence in Spain were allowed to do it. Not that it wasn't horrible, but put it in context. Spain was terrorized by Muslim raiders for centuries. Once they gained power, they wanted to eradicate support for the old enemy. so if you're going to quote history, tell the whole story - unless your professors haven't told you this side? Liberal arts professors often don't tell you the whole truth - I know that from my college experience.

I know pretty well about what happend in Spain-Portugal areas and in Rome.
But it isn't the whole world. The people in my country, were killed ONLY because we didn't belived in god. Same in Asia, America etc.

Rich, I respect you because you can have a reasonable conversation. Christian or non-christian, you know history and don't start to offend your opposite side personally. If there were more christians like you then the world would be much better place.

[horns666]

Rich is great people..so are you E..most of you guys are..

we have different beliefs..but we do have a common bond..music..geetars...whatnots

That's why we're here..friends talk about these kinda things..not always about guitars..

You can like all the same shit I like and be an asshole IMO..or you can be totally awesome and not agree with a single thing I say..

Do you really think I feel most peple share my point of view..pfffft..hell no!!

most of my family members don't..but I love 'em!

[Endrik]

"I don't know about you, but Bill would've definitely been burned at a stake or something! "


Ahhhhh that would ROCK!

I like E's point of view..I smile when I read his stuff..

I like to read your stuff too Bill

And as you said bro. you have read the bible many times and it's full of crap, paradoxes and contradiction.

Many people read only the bible, not the other books wich contain more facts or whatever. There are tons of material wich describe the birth of different religions and what happend at that time in the whole world. Many people just don't want to read those books.

As I said earlier, normal people couldn't read the bible. When Netherland's Calvinists started to publish bible for all the people then guess what happened.
Every one could interpret the bible totattly differently than the other.
You could just read about anything out of the bible, even that Michael Jackson is god
And suddenly tons of different cults and shit started to born.
The New-Age blah blahh blahh was born.
It was because everyone understand the bible differently, many didn't agree with the church so they made their own church.
Bible is messy, I don't like messyness, I like facts

[horns666]

The REAL reason why I hate God is because Black Metal tells me to..!:ROTF:

[Big D]

Big D,

- Christians are doing a LOT more tangibly to help us than athiests and agnostiucs.

I agree with you on that dude. That's why even though I believe almost nothing that is taught at the church I go to (Lutheran), I still volunteer for charitable events. And I still donate money every month to the church, because it goes to good causes.

But I'm telling you, if our Pastor starts trying to push the 6,000 year theory on me....then I am DONE!

[horns666]

I never heard of this 6000 year old theory ..is this something new..how gay!

The world is flat too right??