Topic de jour. Phone calls

[fett]

It is an age of "I can see all". Whether it is what you buy at the supermarket or whether you post something on the net, you are being watched and tracked. There is a "benign" use of the information that is gathered. But, where does it stop? The Bush administration has taken this way out of bounds. These are Republicans that have a credo of "Less Goverment". But now it is: "Less is More"

[YetAnotherOne]

I certainly wouldn't agree that listening to the content of conversations between persons in the US and known terrorists or terrorist affiliates outside the US is "way out of bounds." Similarly I wouldn't characterize a database of number-to-number connection info that can be searched for calls to numbers known to be associated with terrorists or terrorist sympathizers "way out of bounds."

Every business you do business with and many web sites you access collect FAR more information about you and distribute it to a great many entities. Commercial information clearninghouses know one hell of a lot more about what we all do and whom we contact than does the government. If you want to bang the privacy rights drum I suggest you start there as that's the only source of real problems for you, I and the overwhelming majority of persons in the US.

[P I K A]

First off it was clinton back in 94 that gave the phone companies permission to do whats going on now. It seems the libs enemy is the Bush administration rather then the terrorists. Second ,think about how many calls are made on a daily basis ,personal and business calls. Probably millions of hours a day every day. How do you think that can be listened to? The target is terrorists. I live in NY and saw ground zero days after and the terrorists are gutless soulless madmen. And they play esp's.

[Inearthed]

First off it was clinton back in 94 that gave the phone companies permission to do whats going on now

Source?

[YetAnotherOne]

Source?

Remember Echelon? According to the NY Times that was "a necessity" during the Clinton Administration yet the far less intrusive things the Bush Administration does bring forth cries of (obviously faux) outrage. Interesting isn't it?

[fett]

Do you guys think for a second that all the billions of dollars we are spending and all the calls were are saving will stop a determined person or group from doing us harm? WWI was started by a quirk of fate. The assassin just happened to see the Archduke driving by and shot him. That could happen to us. National security is why we have a centralized government. I don't think anyone would argue with that. The issue, here, is a matter of how effective that government is in protecting us. Spending untold billions of dollars on BS don't cut it with me. If our intelligence community is so inept, God help us. Just send in the commandos and "off" the guys. Just don't tell anyone. That's how they used to do it. That's history.

[YetAnotherOne]

Actually WWI's triggering event occurred becuase members of the Black Hand sent a newspaper clipping announcing the archduke's visit to their associates in Sarajevo who carried out the assasination. But that group didn't spring into being on the morning of June 28, 1914, it began with ten members in 1911 and by 1914 was comprised of roughly 2500 individuals, seven of whom actually participated in the events in Sarajevo. The 3+ years between the group's formation and the assasination and the 2493 members who did not participate were missed opportunities to prevent the assasination. Similarly, for every cunning and determined jihadi in the US that would do us harm there exists a network of contacts and communications that will give him or her away. The only way to guarantee the success of the bad guys is to prevent the good guys from using all reasonable means to find them.

An aside: The "but for" analysis of history really isn't very useful. Archduke Ferdinand's assasination was the triggering event for WWI but it's not the reason the war occurred. Europe in 1914 was a powderkeg and nothing was going to prevent WWI from happening at some point in the early 20th century. Wars happen not due to single events but because regional or global tensions build beyond a point of no return and must be released, unfortunately that release comes in the form of war. None of us will live long enough to see the day when that generality is not true. If there are going to be wars (there are) we might as well win them.

[RacerX]

It was still an interesting turn of events

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_in_Sarajevo

[fett]

"Whatever!!!!" The point is, no matter how hard you try to prevent something, someone with figure out a way to get around it. We did it as kids. And they will do it as terrorists. The bottom line is we can't win. So we spend billions off- budget to finance the "War" . Those guys have won without firing another shot. We will bankrupt ourselves chasing "What If".

[YetAnotherOne]

Yes it was but fett seems to be implying that "but for" the assasination of the archduke WWI would not have occurred. The odds of that being true are about as good as my odds of winning the lottery this evening.

[YetAnotherOne]

"Whatever!!!!" The point is, no matter how hard you try to prevent something, someone with figure out a way to get around it. We did it as kids. And they will do it as terrorists. The bottom line is we can't win. So we spend billions off- budget to finance the "War" . Those guys have won without firing another shot. We will bankrupt ourselves chasing "What If".

I'm always amazed by the sheer defeatism of the left. Does that come from hopelessness and despair or do you (as do many on the left) hate western civilization so much that you believe anything that might follow it will be an improvement? I'm genuinely curious.

BTW you might want to keep Irish philosopher Edmund Burke's words in mind, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." That fairly succinctly summarizes the reason we cannot, as you advocate, "do nothing".

[fett]

I am neither left or right. I am a realist with a sense of history. We, in the Western World, have had it our way for a very long time. Our "Western Rules" made our wars cut and dry. Now, we have to deal with the "other" world and their rules are different. That is, they have no rules and they ain't playing fair. That doesn't mean we have to submit to a violation of the fundamental rights we fought a war over. You can't win a game unless the opponents are playing by the same "rules". Is it going to cost billions and billions of dollars to play this non-game? I guess so.

[Deneb]

"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Ben Franklin

I wish voting issues weren't things like abortion and gay marriage. I hate the whole lefty righty thing.
I hate when you hear the I saw ground zero after it happened crap. I hate that we're not supposed to profile these criminals (you see a middle eastern man early to late 20's go through airport security...and grandma is the one getting her orthopedic shoes checked, yeah like her fucking handbag said go muhammed).

My quote above is my bottom line. I'd rather live in freedom, with danger, and fear than to live in a big brother styled world

[Deneb]

I just read that the left hates western civilation? Wow, I didn't know that me faithfully paying taxes, obeying the laws of my city/state/county/commonwealth/country made me hate western civilization. I didn't know that loving where I was born, and what it stood for, made me hate western civilization.

Next thing, you'll be telling us that love it or leave it load.

[Razor]

"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Ben Franklin

Damn good quote Deneb. Very fitting too! I'm as right wing as they come, but I absolutely can not stand anything Bush has done post Afghanistan/Taliban. He has done more the past few years to single handidly enable the growth of big government than anyone previously. The man has a distinct resemblence to Chancellor Palpatine IMHO. Yeah, everything with me reverts back to Star Wars. Where's Tekky to back me up???