"I hate theory" - how do you respond?

[Black Mariah]

I don't know theory, and I play melodic/progressive metal in clubs around Boston. There goes that blues rock wankery thing...

Not really. I didn't hear anything I haven't heard in a dozen other bands in clubs around here.

[finnman]

oh. i get it now.
The flat thing'ie with the pretty wire,
where my left hand goes, is a fretboard?
Dude, I'm the guitarist for you.

[jgcable]

Or if you're in a band with more than one guitarist and like to do harmonies that are in key. Or if you want to change keys. Or if you have to work with a keyboard player, or ANY OTHER INSTRUMENT for that matter... theory matters if you want to do anything but rehash shitty blues licks in some spareass bar.



Do it naturally? Like theory is somehow unnatural. Pure ignorance, dude. The concept of a "theory player" is laughable. You're confusing what should be basic fucking knowledge with the idiocy of playing around scales and a metronome. The two are separate entities and have nothing to do with each other.



Strange. I've never known a single player worth a shit that didn't know basic theory. The ones that don't know theory are always lameass blue-based dweebs that can't stray from the pentatonic scale, lest their fingers fall off and their balls rot. My taint quivers in anger every time someone calls those douchebags anything but what they are... DOUCHEBAGS. Hands on street smart my ass. They're just too damn lazy to look beyond what Hendrix and Clapton did nearly 40 years ago.



I have never met a single player that can rip a guitar to shreds that doesn't know what he's doing. Even if they don't have the in-depth knowledge of some shredders, they know the basics.

BTW, I'll gladly put myself up against any "hands on street smart" player you want to roll out.

I am a hands on street smart player and I officially "roll myself out". Anytime.. anywhere. I eat theory players for breakfast and shit them out at lunch. Nothing beats an aggressive ear player. Theory... hah.... save it for the classroom (and for jazz and fusion studio musicians). I can riff and play harmonies to anything.. IN REAL TIME. I don't need no stinking theory.
I have no idea how modes relate to chord shapes or playing in box shapes or dominant whatevers or any of that horseshit. I do know just about every scale and chord on the planet worth knowing and if I come across a new one I don't need to do a thesis on why it exists and how it relates to the chords in the song. I don't need theory to tell me how to play a melody for a dual guitar solo. I don't need theory to tell me what scales to play pending the key I am in. I only need my ears and my 30 years of ripping guitars to shreds. Remember... kiddies.... I have been a lead guitarist/shredder since 1977. I have always been a soloist and I have never stopped learning different styles and I constantly push my playing to the next level. How?? Not by reading books on guitar theory. BY PRACTICING. I have a friend who is a walking encylopedia of guitar theory. He knows everything. He is like a walking guitar grimoire.. oh yea.... he carries my equipment sometimes and I give him lessons occasionally when he gets his head out of the guitar theory books. I keep telling him to stop studying guitar and start practicing it.
He talks a good game but he is a hack. If you talked to him you would think he was Steve Vai.
My best friend Dave is probably the best true soloist I have ever heard. He was ripping 18nps back in the mid 80's. He has a style similar to LeTektro and Malmsteen. He circular picks and is totally agressive. He has absolutely no clue what he is playing. Stop him during any solo and he couldn't tell you what key he was in nor could he tell you what type of scale he is playing. Half the time he couldn't even tell you what chord he is playing. He is one of the best true shredders I have ever heard in my entire life. You want to talk about feel. He plays with as much passion and feel as any other player I could think of. He is the type of player who could make you consider giving up the guitar because he makes it look so easy. He hardly ever practices either.
This is a very good topic. Its about time the JCF had a good one.
Thanks.

[jgcable]

Actually, by what you're saying, you agree more with me. Theory is a tool, just like any other part of the guitar. Used wrong, it fucks everything up...

"Okay, we'll play an F# major arpeggio for six and a half bars, then we go to an E dominant Phrygian meta-locrian with basil scale and arpeggiate that in 7/12 while the keys play a G% Burger King mayonnaise with extra aeolian for three bars in 34/2. Everyone got that?"
"Umm... Tim... we're doing 'Blitzkrieg Bop', you anus."

Theory only becomes a math problem when you're fucking it up, or when you're working with other instruments. I use keyboard parts a lot, so even my rudimentary knowledge goes a long way towards making it easier.

In other words, work smarter and not harder.

This is where you have it all wrong BM.
When you are a guitar player... especially a metal shredder..... the way to REALLY get good is to work harder. Working smarter is for the wedding band guitarists. Blood, sweat and grinding it out until you figure it out is the only way to be a guitar god.

[mpigott]

Pretty much a working knowledge of theory is imporant to any guitar player, and any great player that has come and gone has known some theory whether they admit it or not. Unless youre into knowing about extended dominant progressions, or modes of harmonic minor, melodic minor....yada yada, it doesnt really matter, especially if youre into a rock/blues style that uses power chords and is based in pentatonic scales. But if you want to expand your mind and maybe come up with a few new cool ideas you never thought possible, a theory book might be up your alley. It really just makes it harder to get "good" at the guitar with a closed mind such as that (this is by no means a jab at blues players). And sometimes the most fun is learning theory that you would never expect to use in say a metal context, and adapting it to somehow fit....makes for interesting stuff......Who wouldve thought to make classical music into a shred context? now everyone has a little neoclassical up their sleeve.

[PallarAndersVisa]

to all you "i dont know theory" people. You're telling me you dont know a major scale? EVERYONE knows some theory. Whether its the crazy terminology or just basic scales. I'm pretty sure everyone here knows a major scale.

but the concept of "hating" theory is so dumb! Im a self taught mostly street smart player myself, but everytime I learn something new "out of the books", it makes me a better player, because it gives me more to do with my playing.

saying you dont like theory is like saying you dont like knowledge.

example: I was writing music with this dude, and part of a riff I was doing had a very basic C# (i think) minor scale in it. basic shape, one position, 7 notes. The dude COULDNT get it. You should be able to hear a basic scale and know what the hell just happened, you know?

I didnt want this to turn into a fight, I wanted some witty responses to all these "I hate learning" fags :P

[Shawn Lutz]

Wow, venom flying in this thread!

I feel that for me, theory is best used to describe what has been written, and not always used to come up with new material. I've been around damn fine guitarists from both schools. I myself fall someplace in between. In fact, when most people hear my style, they call it "middle school".

On one hand too little theory and you have a hard time transcribing, describing, and notating music. It becomes harder to communicate with other musicians.

On the other hand, people who base their playing wholly in theory are usually uninteresting as songwriters. And pompous assholes to boot. I can't tell you how many guitar players I've met that are overburdened with music theory and devoid of any originality or real talent.

The thing we must remember is that music is art. We musicians are artists. The end product is what matters. Good music should connect to your soul, not just look impressive on paper.

I really like the way I am with theory. I played guitar for years before ever taking a lesson. I developed my own style and learned to play by ear, and I find that invaluable. Over the years I've picked up bits and pieces of theory and I use it frequently to flesh out my ideas and communicate with others. However, too much theory and music becomes a math problem, and for me anyways, that's NOT what it's all about.

However, having said that I see both sides of what you guys are saying, and I agree MORE with jgcable, and I must say, BM, you need to take a bong hit or something, brother. None of this shit is worth getting angry over!

thanks for saving me a whole lotta of typing Ace...well said.

I think you have to know enough about it to forget it. I hate over analyzing shit from a theory perspective.

[Black Mariah]

I am a hands on street smart player and I officially "roll myself out". Anytime.. anywhere. I eat theory players for breakfast and shit them out at lunch. Nothing beats an aggressive ear player. Theory... hah.... save it for the classroom (and for jazz and fusion studio musicians). I can riff and play harmonies to anything.. IN REAL TIME. I don't need no stinking theory.

I'd really like to know what the fuck you mean by "theory player" because I'm DAMN sure that a guy like Eric Johnson or Jeff Loomis could rip your balls off melodically, and they're both theory factories.

As far as IN REAL TIME goes, all that statement does is prove how ignorant you are. If you actually know theory, you don't have to think about it any more than you have to think about what sounds right without knowing theory. All theory does is tell you WHY it sounds right. It's like Yngwie Malmsteen said when asked what new guitarists should learn. He said something to the effect of "Theory. Learn everything about music theory. Then forget it all and play the guitar."

If you can play well without theory, you still know theory. You're just too fucking lazy to learn the goddamn words.

This is where you have it all wrong BM.
When you are a guitar player... especially a metal shredder..... the way to REALLY get good is to work harder. Working smarter is for the wedding band guitarists. Blood, sweat and grinding it out until you figure it out is the only way to be a guitar god.

That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Again. Twice in one thread. Damn.

Really dude... just stop it. You're spouting moronic crap all over the place, and moronic crap screws up forum code (I'm the kind of moronic crap. I know what I'm talking about).

I'm fucking sick of this "I don't know what I play, I just play!" bullshit. If you can't be arsed after THIRTY FUCKING YEARS to take twenty fucking minutes out of your REALLY HARD WORK that you put into the guitar every day (you DO play every day, I hope...) to figure out what you're actually doing, then why the fuck do you even bother playing? How can ANYONE not see theory as an integral part of being a guitarist?

[Black Mariah]

I think you have to know enough about it to forget it.

What he said.

[RacerX]

Somebody needs to take a

[diablomozart]

theory is an interesting subject for sure...i htink all of us has at least some knowledge in theory when we play...we may not know the terms (i know a few...my girl who is a violin player knows a lot more...lol)...but when it comes down to it...whther you realize you know it or not you do...you can tell when two notes grate together by hearing them...your ears are your greatest guide...but...realize that the majority of music you have grown up listening to and emulating are usually theoretically correct...henceforth you have been conditioned to know theory without realizing it...score one for big brother...lmao...d.m.

[VitaminG]

Somebody needs to take a

I'll say!

I guess anyone who plays without studying theory can't really call themselves a guitarist? I know some theory, but I've never really cared to learn chord/scale associations and all that. I know scale shapes all over the neck, but I usually can't tell you what scale I'm playing, only whether it sounds alright over the progression.

But without BM's validation, I'm not really a guitarist. Just a douchebag. That makes me sad....

[Black Mariah]

But without BM's validation, I'm not really a guitarist. Just a douchebag. That makes me sad....

Yes. You are right. Without my approval, you are all just douchebags. DOUCHEBAGS, I SAY! Line forms to the left. Have your pencils sharpened and amps on 11. The test begins in 20 minutes.

On a slightly more serious note, you misunderstand what I'm saying. The doucheness comes from the rather stupid statement that "I don't need theory! I know how to play!" Total. Absolute. Bullshit. Ninety nine times out of a hundred all the guys that say that shit do is rehash old Metallica and Pantera leads, without any attention paid to whether or not it actually fits the song either melodically or harmonically.

*EDIT*
And you don't have to STUDY theory and more than you STUDY anything else. You and everyone else seem to have this idea that theory involves never playing an instrument and sticking your head in a book for the rest of your life. That is bullshit, and is not reality for players that actually give a fuck about playing outside of their bedroom. Theory is something you just pick up as you go along.

Classical musicians start off learning to read music. I dare ANYONE to tell me that guys like Julian Bream don't have just as much balls in their playing as Angus Young, despite approaching the instrument in a purely academic fashion.

[RobRR]

Another Douchebag checkin in!

In all seriousness though... I dont know theory. Ive been playing for about 10 years, and while Im not a monster player, I can hold my own. Does my playing suffer from not knowing theory? Sure... there are alot of scales and modes I dont know, therefor I have to work harder to piece things together. Ultimatley, I would like to learn some theory... but Im not a book kinda guy. I learn from seeing it infront of me.

[RacerX]

What Rob said goes for me....except for the douchebag part!