Geo-Politics

[MBreinin]

Yeah, come on people..didn't you see "The Last Samurai"?

While Japan adopted more Western approaches to governemnt, culturally they were still very Asian during WWII. They still are, however they for some reason idolize Western Culture.

Mike

[jjw]

thats cool lexmy grandfather fought his way up through africa-italy- and my great grandfather fought and got a DSO in the 1st world war for going into nomans land under machine gun fire to rescue his commander.My father fought in a few local pubs..lol..us wakelys are hard bastards mate..lol

Your missing my point-i didnt say we would but could under the new code of conduct that has arrisen today.I fully understand america wouldnt like it one lil bit!lol

anyway its the past mate,how about your native indians that were wiped out like sewer rats to steal their land lol good do this all day

anyway have a beer with me mate

[fett]

Hey, today, Israel is about ready to throw in the tanks. They are on the border just ready to go into Lebanon. Who cares about Japan, Germany, England, Ireland, US, and the politics from decades past. It's great reading but it has very little bearing on what's happening "right now". The history books are going to be rewritten.

[jjw]

Israel has called up about 3 thousand reserve troops mate,the ground war might start soon!Hopefully they do a bit better than they have so far against the other side!i think they have taken out 3 terrorists in the small ground skirmishing they have had but they(cough)have taken out 19 troops!

(edit)this bloody keyboard sucks!

[lerxstcat]

Sure Justin, it's cool! No offense, I just think it's your country's newly limited ability to do things by force that have changed your views more than an enlightened state of mind. Not that there's anything wrong with that,
but we've been top dogs for only 60 years! You guys were on top for 350 years, we're entitled to dig it for awhile!

It's bad enough we have to clean up on emissions and such now, while 1.3 billion Chinese are heading to where we were 50 years ago!:ROTF:

[petedz]

True to an extent. The Japanese adopted Western technology and to an extent governmental forms as far as governmental departments, so they could quickly catch up and be able to defend themselves against Western powers. They did this well enough that while in the 1860s they were extremely backwards technologically, by 1905 they beat the Russian Navy in battle and won a war with Russia, a European power.

What was different? The monarchy? Britain, Germany, Russia and Austria all had monarchies through WWI. Britain still does. Industrialization? Japan accomplished in 50 years what Europe took 200 to do.

I'll go with your first paragraph, but the differences were far more important than the similarities. In fact, they may be relevant to this discussion: a mandatory state religion, widespread fanaticism, disregard for human life (not that of an enemy, but their own), distain for individual worth and accomplishment, an inferiority complex caused by watching the developed world pass them by...all deeply ingrained cultural tendancies at odds with the West. Sound familiar yet? Where did all this lead? To the invention of futile suicide tactics against a vastly superior force during WWII.

I never considered this until you challenged me on it. At first glance everything falls into place pretty nicely, although I'm sure the premise would fall apart if I thought about it for a few more minutes...

[lerxstcat]

I'll go with your first paragraph, but the differences were far more important than the similarities. In fact, they may be relevant to this discussion: a mandatory state religion, widespread fanaticism, disregard for human life (not that of an enemy, but their own), distain for individual worth and accomplishment, an inferiority complex caused by watching the developed world pass them by...all deeply ingrained cultural tendancies at odds with the West. Sound familiar yet? Where did all this lead? To the invention of futile suicide tactics against a vastly superior force during WWII.

I never considered this until you challenged me on it. At first glance everything falls into place pretty nicely, although I'm sure the premise would fall apart if I thought about it for a few more minutes...

You make some good parallels to the current situation, but we're not looking (yet) at a nation-state using its military to make kamikaze attacks. And the Japanese may have had a temporary inferiority complex about technological inferiority, they also had a superiority complex in believing themselves to be superior to other Asians, and that all Asians were superior to Europeans in all ways EXCEPT technologically.

They did transform their government from essentially feudalism to a centralized system in the years from 1865-1900. Sort of what Germany and Italy were also doing at the same time.

[fett]

Yea, Yea, Yea. So what do we do now? Allow Israel to "call out the hounds"; have Rice go in there and do nothing; or intervene? This makes Iraq look like a zit on the face of the Middle-East. With all due respect to our men and women over there.

[petedz]

And the Japanese may have had a temporary inferiority complex about technological inferiority, they also had a superiority complex in believing themselves to be superior to other Asians, and that all Asians were superior to Europeans in all ways EXCEPT technologically.

Actually that makes the comparison work even better. The Arab world can't stomach being classified as part of the third world because of their once proud past. The Japanese reacted to the same dilemma with a supercharged industrial revolution, but the chip on their shoulders had the same root cause.

As for the Kamikaze tactics--I already realized that was a throwaway line when I was typing it.

[lerxstcat]

Yea, Yea, Yea. So what do we do now? Allow Israel to "call out the hounds"; have Rice go in there and do nothing; or intervene? This makes Iraq look like a zit on the face of the Middle-East. With all due respect to our men and women over there.

Actually the Iraq invasion pitted 130,000 US troops against some 400,000 Iraqi troops, so the scale is much larger in Iraq. This is just more of a powder keg for spreading. I say let Condi go in and talk, and get nowhere. Arabs won't listen to her, she's a woman and black - both inferior in their mindset. Meanwhile let the Israelis take care of business so they can go on to bomb the Iranian nuke sites and spare us the heat for that one too!

[lerxstcat]

Actually that makes the comparison work even better. The Arab world can't stomach being classified as part of the third world because of their once proud past. The Japanese reacted to the same dilemma with a supercharged industrial revolution, but the chip on their shoulders had the same root cause.

As for the Kamikaze tactics--I already realized that was a throwaway line when I was typing it.

True on the Arab superiority/inferiority complex. Difference is that they have not really had an industrial revolution per se. They buy all their tech with oil money, I don't think they're building a lot of factories. Iran and Pakistan are, but they're not Arabs either. Also, the Arab lands are not that productive, and they don't have credible navies or air forces, let alone even land armies. They have large numbers of people, but they're third world poor people other than the oil money, and even that just allows them to have parity in standards of living.

[fett]

The scale is actually much smaller and a different issue. And worse in it's own right. This crisis is going to be a slug it out with the locals and we, the UN, Allah, God or whomever will have to sit back and watch. This is the: "Shootout at the OK Coral"

[Tashtego]

Fett, I don't see the current situation as anything but a little escalation of the usual state of affairs. Israel won't attack Syria and Iran so they can't make anything but temporary progress by killing as many Moslem combatants in Lebanon as possible within some time limited window. This episode will pass eventually and we can get back to sitting around waiting for the Iranians to build some nukes and use them on Israel. This is an expensive way to retaliate though. The Israelis should have just started executing prisoners until the soldiers were returned, or they ran out of prisoners.

[charvelguy]

The Hezbollah want a ground fight.. an interpeter for the news crews that were being led into the zone where Israel was said to have bombed a bunker had a guide that was calling the air attacks and the 23 ton bomb drop the other day as "cowardly" and wanted Israel to come fight them on the ground instead of jets.

It may seem like a standard operation for Israel to do this... but I say it could last for weeks and if militant help is crossing from the Iran or Syrian border.. it could escalate.

[SeventhSon]

Well, I don't see it as an issue of who "deserves" the land. I mean, if you want to go back in time it was once the land of the Israelites...so does that mean they have a valid claim to the Holy Land? Alot of Jews and Israelis would indeed claim this. This land was the cradle from which Judaism went forth in the Diaspora.

That's my point. After so many millennia of changed ownership, no one "deserves" the land. Different cultures might feel that they're entitled to the land resulting in the inevetible conflict. The vanquished either have to learn to live with the situation (Aborigines in Australia, Native Americans in US, Cuban Exiles in Florida) or maintain a resistance effort that ultimately may or may not be successful.

The fact of the matter is that I don't see anyone turning the clocks back, except the Israelis themselves. They have repeatedly surrendered land that was taken as spoils of war. They were forced to negotiate with and recognize what was essentially the Terrorist leadership of Arafat and the PLO.

respectfully, i don't think israel is unique in this. US surrendered many japanese territories after WWII. The allies (except for Russia) pretty much gave Germany back.

I see it like this, if you invade a neighbor and lose, you have no justification for crying about seized lands. If Israel had held the buffer zone in Lebanon, Hezbollah would not have a position to launch missle strikes. Jordanians have shelled Israel repeatedly from the West Bank, yet portions have been returned. Syria screams for the return of the Golan Heights...for what? More missle and artillery sites, that's what.

well, i think you would agree that these are concessions that are carefully thought out. i'm sure there is a ton of pressure from the u.s. to appease the arab neighbors in order to keep the oil flowing.

I can understand the plight of Palestinians who were displaced and have forever been refugees as a result. However, the majority of them threw their lot in with the invasion force in '48 and just figured the Jews would be exterminated and driven from their land. A part of me simply says, "Fuck Them", a part of me yearns for a peaceful resolution that everyone can be satisfied with.

600,000 displaced is the low end of the number that israel quotes. let's say what you say is true, then it's also true that potentially 299,999 did NOT cast their lot with the invasion force. certainly the israeli supreme court agrees that at least 100,000 should be repatriated.

i think it's convenient to just paint the whole lot as "traitors" thus preventing their return. else it would potentially cause massive problems for israel being a democratic government and having a huge influx of arabs back into israel. this is one of many elephants in the room. that democracy is ok if only certain people get to vote. please don't misinterpret this as a cheap shot to israel. the u.s. and other democracies (wink, wink) has done this in their history as well.

As far as Israel literally getting blood from a stone, well that is a sticky issue. I guess you cannot base a nation's cultural worth on its GNP and ability to industrialize. However, look at it like this....Israel was not given a wonderful prime piece of real estate with vast petroleum resources. They were given a pile of rock and dirt. I know that is a simplification and there are quite beautiful parts of Israel (many that were not originally intended to be part of Israel), but the Israelis have certainly done quite a bit with what they were given. Citrus orchards in the desert! They have truly created a paradise there and the arab world is indeed jealous of that. Without their oil, the arab nations would very little to contribute economically to the world. Again, whether or not you find that relevant is a personal issue.

what is the logical implication of this opinion? that states/cultures that can get blood from stone are more entitled to land that is currently occupied by 3rd world countries?

In the end we have to face the fact that deep down inside we are still animals. Territorial and aggressive animals. While might may not equal right, the reality is simply that Israel has the might to remain firmly planted where they are. The sooner their enemies come to this realization the sooner the region can move forward.

i think that is pretty much true. i think that there can be no peace without recognition of the jewish state by the arab world. unfortunately, i'm sure this is a bitter pill to swallow, and many choose not to.