Geo-Politics

[SeventhSon]

As is yours. If mine is Fox News yours is al Jazeera or perhaps International A.N.S.W.E.R.

brad, i apologize for the cheap shot.

Name a significant achievement or contribution to the world (other than oil) made by Arabs living in an area where Arab culture in predominant in the last 50 years. No? The last 100 then? You'll find that the research will provide slim pickings for a rebuttal.

I am not sure why is this even relevant? What are the criteria for "contribution to the world" (whatever that means) that justifies a culture's desire for self rule? Is there a logical implication for indidgenous cultures of Papua New Guinea or dozens of African and South/Central American countries that fail to meet your subjective criteria for cultural "success"?

You’re confusing criticism with racism. It's not the least bit racist to point out that some cultures are failures...

but such a label is completely subjective and irrelevant. it is about as subjective and relevant as me arguing a point based on my assertion that you are "a complete failure" (i don't think that of course...you are obviously a smart guy with a killer gmp collection, and i enjoy our discussions). it just amounts to using the debate to insult you. anyone can legitimately (if subjectively) call each other complete failures. so what?

and yes, it's subjective. if you say "cultural success" is gnp per capita, someone else can say its effective care for the culture's elders. or how many citizens can catch/skin their food. who the fuck knows?

As for the “traitors” (I'll stick with that term as it is accurate), Israel as a sovereign nation has every right to refuse entry to anyone they damn well please, most especially those who emigrated in favor of hostile enemies rather than staying to defend the nation to which they now wish to lay claim.

Cmon, Brad, most texts describe the arabs as having fled or forced out. "In addition to those who fled Israeli territory, about 100,000 Arabs in Israel were displaced from their own villages. Many left willingly and were assured that the eviction was a temporary security measure. In particular, the residents of Ikrit and Birim have been trying to return to their villages along the Lebanese border since 1948, but have not been allowed to do so despite repeated rulings of the Israeli supreme court." Again, you take an event and paint it in the most disparaging way to support your point. Large scale forced resettlement is not in dispute.

The real problem isn't the land it's the fact that Israel in its very short history easily passed up the achievements it had taken many centuries for their neighbors to secure. Israel is a constant reminder to everyone else in the region of their own failures and shortcomings.

I respectfully disagree. As you say in your last paragraph it's pretty much about the land.

I pointed out the fact that the Jews purchased a good deal of the land on which modern Israel sits before the UN formally created the Jewish state not as an endorsement of the concept that land purchase is the only valid way for a state to expand its territory, but because there's an ingrained mythology that innocent Arabs were forcibly removed from their lands while millions of evil Jews with no prior claim to the area poured in. That's a very incorrect conception but it underpins the understanding of many who assert the view you posted above, as such it was worth commenting on.

the fact that the jews purchased a good deal of land is not the issue for the palesinians. the fact that the UN created the jewish state is.

"In September 1948 a Trustee on Absentee Properties was appointed by the state of Israel and the state issued measures to organize the seizure and the allocation of these properties. On March 15, 1950 the Israeli Knesset passed the Law of the Absentee Properties Law #5710. This law considered, among other factors, the Trustee on the Absentee Properties as the legitimate owner of these properties and gave him the authority to sell and transfer ownership of such properties to the Israeli Department of Construction and Development (Jiryis, 1973)."

There are plenty of perfectly valid ways for a nation to gain lands. One you might find interesting is the Law of Conquest (you'll find a more detailed description in the first 10-20 pages of pretty much any Real Property casebook). It's essentially exactly what it sounds like: if you kick someone's ass you get to take away their toys.
The modern conception of the victor giving the loser's lands back and rebuilding the losing nation then leaving is the aberration rather than the norm. The longstanding rules of war would have justified Israel's keeping every square inch of land they took away from the Arab states that repeatedly attacked them. That they chose to voluntarily relinquish those claims is almost unprecedented, particularly given that Israel is approximately the size of a postage stamp.

actually, while i don't agree with the sentiment, i agree with you that this is the way the world works for better or for worse. yes, it is about victors and vanquished. so, no, i don't believe it's reasonable for israel to pull up stakes and move to mexico or wherever. furthermore, i'd be a hypocrite to say that we should reverse time and make it the way it was before. otherwise i should hand the deed to my house to the next native american that i run into.

that said, i don't think there is one jew that doesn't source the current powder keg directly to 1948. yes, the creation of the israeli state is a source of great national pride for jews all over the world, and i'm happy for them for that. at the same time, the arabs call the event the nakba (disaster), and i am also sad for them for that. if you dismiss that this relatively recent event was the trigger for what's happening now, you are just sticking your head in the sand. and any quest for "solutions" that ignores this simple fact is futile.

[RacerX]

the fact that the UN created the jewish state is.

Wasn't the "Jewish state" "created" many centuries before 1948?

[SeventhSon]

of course.

just talking about the most recent land ownership change. i'm sure the last time the jews/arabs lost that piece of dirt to each other/romans/turks/british, that whoever got their arses kicked raised hell for a good generation or two.

same shit different century.

[Tashtego]

jjw - you argue as if you thought I approve of the IRA somehow, that is incorrect. I believe you missed the point.

On the WWII Japanese and German example: I understood the war in Iraq to be an experiment from the beginning. The President’s National Security Strategy Statement to congress openly declared that we were going to knock off some unfriendly governments in the Middle East, install democratic governments, and the previously savage and bloodthirsty Moslems living in the region would be converted to upstanding peaceful citizens of representative democracies. At the time, I think this was an example of the Executive reining in the population who were ready for far more draconian punitive measures. I have always found the arguments about missing WMDs etc to be diversionary. They were never the primary motivation for the war. Capturing particular weapons achieves a tactical victory. The strategy is to change Moslems from what they are into people we can coexist with. We shall see if this is possible, Islam may prove to be too debilitating a handicap to the social development we are attempting to foster. We should be thinking about what to do next if this is true before its adherents acquire the modern weaponry that would enable them to carry out their apocalyptic goals.

[lerxstcat]

nothing wrong with a majority of arabs or persians mate!this terrorist war is hyped up by the puppet masters to make them evil fuckers more money.Just because one SMALL group is fanatical and extreme that doesnt mean we can invade their country!I bought the I.R.A into this thread for that reason alone to ask whether we should have bombed dublin back to the stone age and the same with their money gathering wing in Boston-i see it was ingnoredWe did it the right way(made many misstakes along the way)and have a ceasefire.That was done by fucking talking!not mass murder!
This with me or against me bollox that bush says is frankly stupid and false, also the saudi group who flew planes into the twin towers wanted america to pull its forces out of its country
you know what they have after all his huffing and puffing he bent over backwards and gave them one of the things they wanted.
and as for this freedom crap...lol.that is sprouted by funny enough only americans.Do you honestly think you are the land of the free?gods children..lol
Your all cool bastards but the religous ones are slightly scary!

You're British, right? Then how can you say what does or doesn't justify invading another country? From the 1600s to the mid-1950s nobody invaded and conquered more countries than Britain. You didn't relinquish that empire voluntarily either, you were just bled dry by WWII and didn't have the strength to hold it any longer.

Not saying this to diss you, just let's have a reality check here. Nations do what they want if they have the power to push it through. The restraint of recent times is primarily an American innovation. That's why we're the only country that really gets crap when we DON'T exercise restraint. We're the only ones it's expected of, us and Israel that is.

And come on; you know you could never have bombed Boston without the US military taking you out. That's a pipe dream. Attacking Dublin would also probably spur a UN-sponsered, US-led invasion of the UK. So unlike the scenario with the Israelis and Lebanon, you couldn't do those things without committing national suicide.

[hippietim]

You're British, right? Then how can you say what does or doesn't justify invading another country? From the 1600s to the mid-1950s nobody invaded and conquered more countries than Britain. You didn't relinquish that empire voluntarily either, you were just bled dry by WWII and didn't have the strength to hold it any longer.

And that is the sort of reasoning that gets folks questioning our motives when we insist that Iran cease their efforts to build nuclear weapons.

[charvelguy]

"Hey Dick, whaddaya say we do with all these cruise missles we got lying about?" .."We'll, I got Haliburton in my back pocket.. let's go micromanage some change in the Middle East"

..obviously, these guys didn't watch enough Star Trek in their youth to know about the prime directive.

[fett]

I am of the old school. Where does one country have the right to invade another country and not call it war? We have somehow got the "mindset" that the US can just walk right in and overthrow a government we don't like. Granted, that attitude has been around for hundreds of years as other countries have done just that. In the old days, it could take months for news to get back and forth and they had a window to do whatever they wanted. Today, we see it "Live" and both sides know everything "Right Now". I saw this in the "60's during the Viet Nam War. The news coverage did have an impact on events then and there can be a case made that it shortened the war. There will be no answer or solution to today's events because everyone can see it. All this is doing is reinforcing beliefs that have been there since Day 1. Pick a side. What a world. What a world.

[horns666]

How about we put xannax in everyone's beverage..

The war will stop instantly!

[fett]

How about we put xannax in everyone's beverage..

The war will stop instantly!

Xannax is some cleric who we haven't heard from.

[horns666]

I can stop the war NOW..if they would let me!

The worst of enemies would be dry humping each other's legs..I promise you!

Man needs war..it's a huge part of who we are..we LOVE it!

[MichaelLitvak]

all we gotta do is drop a box full of jackson guitars on israel and lebanon
so both sides can shut up and shred

[lerxstcat]

And that is the sort of reasoning that gets folks questioning our motives when we insist that Iran cease their efforts to build nuclear weapons.

Just saying it's a little "glass house" of him to critique the US when Britain invaded any country they wanted with impunity for centuries. Tim, are you
FOR Iran getting nuclear weapons? I don't know of many countries or people who are.

[hippietim]

Just saying it's a little "glass house" of him to critique the US when Britain invaded any country they wanted with impunity for centuries. Tim, are you
FOR Iran getting nuclear weapons? I don't know of many countries or people who are.

My point was that it's a little "glass house" of us to do so as well. You were pointing out shit that happened in the 16th century. I was referring to events far more current. I'm not judging any of those events - just pointing out the irony.

Just to be clear, I don't want ANYONE to have nuclear weapons. I don't want Iran to have them. I don't want Korea to have them. But I also don't want them at George Bush's disposal either.

[MBreinin]

Wow, this thread certainly has brought out some very poignant discussion. YAO, quite the historian.

The Israelis are very proud people. They turned what was basically a small block of sand and dirt into a thriving nation with a strong economy. Deserts into farmland, industry and development. All done without a single dollar from oil. They have repelled the Arab world every time their existence has been threatened. In the '48 War of Independence they did so with surplus arms and equipment, defeating the majority of the Arab world who were equipped with much more state of the art military hardware.

You have to go to Israel to get a real feel for their mindset. Ounce for ounce, Israel has the greatest military on the planet. In a fight of equal numbers, not a single nation in the world could defeat Israel in a conventional war. Their Air Force is the gold standard.

Israel is a nation forged through war and in a constant level of readiness. Everywhere you go in Israel, the reminders are there....detroyed military hardware left to rust beside public highways...so the people never forget. The Arabs have done everything in their power to crush Israel, and have failed at every turn. They have utilized every dirty trick in the book, including a full scale invasion on Yom Kippur...which would equal invading the U.S. on Christmas Eve or Easter...and they have been repelled.

There is a military presence everywhere in Israel, soldiers, equipment, aircraft. Yet, despite all of this...I personally never felt scared there. I can remember being in the Upper Gallilee in 1979 as Israel prepared to invade Lebanon. Every night you would hear the artillery, see the Kfirs and Phantoms crisscrossing the sky...yet I felt safe. It really was odd.

My mother traveled to Israel every year for over 20 years. She had many contacts all over the country. The things I was able to see and experience in Israel were simply things that anyone short of high ranking government officials would be denied. I have personally visited Ramat David AFB in 1985 and was given a guided tour by the base commander. I sat in a Kfir, an F-16 and a Phantom. A squadron of F-16s loaded for precision strikes in Lebanon took off before my eyes. It was truly something else, let me tell you that.

I am an American Jew, and not a very devout one at that. However, if there is one thing that I am rabidly Jewish about, it is the State of Israel. Throughout history, the world has repeatedly attempted to exterminate the Jews..a people always at the mercy of the governments and mobs in the countries we have resided. Israel is a Jewish nation, one that will be defended until the last Israeli is breathing, I can assure you of that.

When it comes down to brass tacks, Israel was forged for one reason...international guilt over allowing the Holocaust to continue. Don't kid yourself and think that the governments of the west had no clue as to what was transpiring in Poland during WWII. It simply was counterproductive to the war effort to pour effort into halting it. Israel was created partly as appeasement for the Jews already residing there and partly in an effort to create a sanctuary for the world's displaced Jews, what was left of them. Zionism was greatly changed after WWII, it became a much more urgent calling.

I truly believe that Israel would prefer to live in peace with its neighbors than to be in a constant state of war. However, they are not in control of this aspect of their existence. Israel has the capacity to vaporize a large portion of their enemies, they are a nuclear nation. I would hate to see it ever come to a nuclear exchange, but I can assure you that the worst mistake any arab nation could make would be to attack Israel with a nuclear weapon..the response would be immediate and overwhelming.

I am very concerned with this conflict. While part of me sees it fizzling out in a few months...another side of me sees this as the beginning of a protracted war with high casualties on both sides.

I guess we will have to see.

Mike