Geo-Politics

[SeventhSon]

Mike, awesome post.

The Israelis are very proud people. They turned what was basically a small block of sand and dirt into a thriving nation with a strong economy. Deserts into farmland, industry and development. All done without a single dollar from oil. They have repelled the Arab world every time their existence has been threatened. In the '48 War of Independence they did so with surplus arms and equipment, defeating the majority of the Arab world who were equipped with much more state of the art military hardware.

None of this is in dispute. I just fail to see the relevancy of it. Just because a culture has a greater capacity to generate gnp per capita somehow justifies that one culture deserves the land more than another?

As i said in my previous post, i don't advocate turning back the clock. we are simply where we're at (just like the US is vis-a-vis native american lands) and we've arrived here the same way we always have. the people who can kick the most arse get the spoils.

To take an example from history, it would be ludicrous to look back in hindsight and argue that the destruction of native american culture and the expulsion from their lands by our forefathers were somehow justified because our forefathers ended up creating the most powerful country on earth. Why attempt to sugarcoat and rationalize it? The land belongs to the united states because our forefathers were successful in fulfilling their manifest destiny. by force if necessary.

The "justification" of who deserves the land more based on "cultural worth" (again, what does this mean) leads to unnecessarily disparaging and provocative (but ultimately subjective and irrelevant) comments about arabs and their culture. and is counterproductive imo to brining about the peace that you (and most of us) want.

[fett]

Condie is having a press-conference. She is not going there to work out a short term solution. This could get real good. Whoops, Dr. Rice.

[jjw]

all we gotta do is drop a box full of jackson guitars on israel and lebanon
so both sides can shut up and shred

yeahh thats the way mate,i would take time off work to teach them the basics and getting them buggers riffing like lil devils

lex for fucks sake mate-the past is the fucking past when its so far in the past!yeahh us brits where great at killing spear chuckers you yanks have got good at killing them too but you kill them from fucking high in the sky like a computer game with god mode onbut times change mate and i bought the ira into this to show the warmongers what restraint is.We could have wiped the floor with Ireland but we didnt-as we respect the Irish and a lot of English people naturaly have Irish roots?so why bomb the fuck out of country for the sake of some silly boys who like bombs?

tash i am cool with you mate,when i next see the parents over there (skibberdeen county cork)i will drink a pint of guinness for you(alright i might drink more than one!)

anyway never mind food aid going over there lets get some jacksons out there pronto to heal the emotional wounds

[fett]

If we drop a shitbox of Jacksons on them, there will be no strings attached and the pickups won't work.

[jjw]

how about sending them the fucking zakk epiphone guitars from that amazing deal i noticed on these boards some time ago!

[fett]

A sense of history is a great tool to get a clue. To rehash it and get people defending the past is a waste of time. I am glad that this thread has lasted. There is "right now" history being made. Let's get current. There will be plenty of events to respond to.

[lerxstcat]

My point was that it's a little "glass house" of us to do so as well. You were pointing out shit that happened in the 16th century. I was referring to events far more current. I'm not judging any of those events - just pointing out the irony.

Just to be clear, I don't want ANYONE to have nuclear weapons. I don't want Iran to have them. I don't want Korea to have them. But I also don't want them at George Bush's disposal either.

It's not "glass house" to say this is the way it is. It IS hypocritical to chide us for doing what they did for hundreds of years. And the British diidn't just do those things in the 16th century - they held that colonial empire until 1947, and only gave it up then because they couldn't afford the expense of military occupation anymore.

The strong dominating the weak is human nature; it's always been that way.
Changing your tune when you go from strong to weak, that's another story.
That was MY point.

I'd rather nuclear weapons didn't exist either, but since they do, I'd rather keep the group of those who have them as small as possible. The time to put the hammer down is before they have it.

[MBreinin]

Mike, awesome post.



None of this is in dispute. I just fail to see the relevancy of it. Just because a culture has a greater capacity to generate gnp per capita somehow justifies that one culture deserves the land more than another?

As i said in my previous post, i don't advocate turning back the clock. we are simply where we're at (just like the US is vis-a-vis native american lands) and we've arrived here the same way we always have. the people who can kick the most arse get the spoils.

To take an example from history, it would be ludicrous to look back in hindsight and argue that the destruction of native american culture and the expulsion from their lands by our forefathers were somehow justified because our forefathers ended up creating the most powerful country on earth. Why attempt to sugarcoat and rationalize it? The land belongs to the united states because our forefathers were successful in fulfilling their manifest destiny. by force if necessary.

The "justification" of who deserves the land more based on "cultural worth" (again, what does this mean) leads to unnecessarily disparaging and provocative (but ultimately subjective and irrelevant) comments about arabs and their culture. and is counterproductive imo to brining about the peace that you (and most of us) want.

Well, I don't see it as an issue of who "deserves" the land. I mean, if you want to go back in time it was once the land of the Israelites...so does that mean they have a valid claim to the Holy Land? Alot of Jews and Israelis would indeed claim this. This land was the cradle from which Judaism went forth in the Diaspora.

The fact of the matter is that I don't see anyone turning the clocks back, except the Israelis themselves. They have repeatedly surrendered land that was taken as spoils of war. They were forced to negotiate with and recognize what was essentially the Terrorist leadership of Arafat and the PLO.

I see it like this, if you invade a neighbor and lose, you have no justification for crying about seized lands. If Israel had held the buffer zone in Lebanon, Hezbollah would not have a position to launch missle strikes. Jordanians have shelled Israel repeatedly from the West Bank, yet portions have been returned. Syria screams for the return of the Golan Heights...for what? More missle and artillery sites, that's what.

I can understand the plight of Palestinians who were displaced and have forever been refugees as a result. However, the majority of them threw their lot in with the invasion force in '48 and just figured the Jews would be exterminated and driven from their land. A part of me simply says, "Fuck Them", a part of me yearns for a peaceful resolution that everyone can be satisfied with.

As far as Israel literally getting blood from a stone, well that is a sticky issue. I guess you cannot base a nation's cultural worth on its GNP and ability to industrialize. However, look at it like this....Israel was not given a wonderful prime piece of real estate with vast petroleum resources. They were given a pile of rock and dirt. I know that is a simplification and there are quite beautiful parts of Israel (many that were not originally intended to be part of Israel), but the Israelis have certainly done quite a bit with what they were given. Citrus orchards in the desert! They have truly created a paradise there and the arab world is indeed jealous of that. Without their oil, the arab nations would very little to contribute economically to the world. Again, whether or not you find that relevant is a personal issue.

In the end we have to face the fact that deep down inside we are still animals. Territorial and aggressive animals. While might may not equal right, the reality is simply that Israel has the might to remain firmly planted where they are. The sooner their enemies come to this realization the sooner the region can move forward.

Mike

[fett]

Stay with what's happening now. There is a historical justification for whatever your point of view is. Don't let this thread get gone in a pissing match. Be an observer and watch what happens.

[lerxstcat]

A sense of history is a great tool to get a clue. To rehash it and get people defending the past is a waste of time. I am glad that this thread has lasted. There is "right now" history being made. Let's get current. There will be plenty of events to respond to.

History repeats itself because while technology changes, human nature remains the same. We may have space-age tech, but we're the same animals we were 30,000 years ago when we wiped out the Neanderthals and absorbed just a bit of their DNA. Expecting the great enlightenment of all humanity to suddenly snap into being is unrealistic, nice as it is to dream of.

[fett]

I know that!!!! But airing that here has been played out. Let's see how this goes and keep our eyes on the days ahead, not the past. There are big changes coming in the Middle-East.

[petedz]

Just catching up on the thread.

Both Japan and Germany had institutions and a form of government that was steeped in Western traditions before WWII.

Lemme get this straight...Japan had "institutions and a form of government [...] steeped in Western traditions before WWII."

:ROTF:

[lerxstcat]

lex for fucks sake mate-the past is the fucking past when its so far in the past!yeahh us brits where great at killing spear chuckers you yanks have got good at killing them too but you kill them from fucking high in the sky like a computer game with god mode onbut times change mate and i bought the ira into this to show the warmongers what restraint is.We could have wiped the floor with Ireland but we didnt-as we respect the Irish and a lot of English people naturaly have Irish roots?so why bomb the fuck out of country for the sake of some silly boys who like bombs?

First, it's Lerx if you don't want to spell it out! Second, it's not that long ago. My dad fought in WWII to help your country with the Eighth Army Air Corps, bombingf Germany from bases in England. You still owned India like a big plantation at that time, and a few more colonies as well.

As for your restraint with the IRA, after WWII that was a simple matter of knowing the United States, with a big Irish contingent, wouldn't have allowed you to do that. From the turn of the 20th century until the end of WWII you simply had bigger concerns, like the rise of Germany under Kaiser Wilhelm and then later Hitler. It's not like you didn't attack and subjugate the Irish for a thousand years before the 20th century rolled around. You were just occupied with bigger problems. And then you no longer had the power to do it without our permission.

[fett]

Yea, Japan did. They had a King; a parliment; minsters and top hats. Unfortunately, they had a 1000 year old Samurai history just underneath all that. Stay current and give history a rest.

[lerxstcat]

Just catching up on the thread.



Lemme get this straight...Japan had "institutions and a form of government [...] steeped in Western traditions before WWII."

:ROTF:

True to an extent. The Japanese adopted Western technology and to an extent governmental forms as far as governmental departments, so they could quickly catch up and be able to defend themselves against Western powers. They did this well enough that while in the 1860s they were extremely backwards technologically, by 1905 they beat the Russian Navy in battle and won a war with Russia, a European power.

What was different? The monarchy? Britain, Germany, Russia and Austria all had monarchies through WWI. Britain still does. Industrialization? Japan accomplished in 50 years what Europe took 200 to do.