Islamic Facists. GHB

[levantin]

I've been meaning to ask a Turkish citizen. How'd you like "Valley of the Woves"? Do Turks really believe US service men are harvesting organs from Iraqi children?

The Valley of the Wolves is horse-shit.

I think it's badly made, overly violent and misrepresentative. A lot of people think like me here, but unfortunately a lot of young people are into it because of the drama aspect.

Do people think that allied forces are harvesting organs because VotW says so? No, of course not. However, IMO this is representative of the sentiment in Turkey towards US policies (NOT the people), especially after US soliders "arrested" Turkish soldiers in Iraq and put bags over their heads.

I really didn't want to post in this thread, because it seems like people are ripping on the stereotypical Western image of a Muslim. Sure, I can understand why, but 99.99% of Muslims are really peace loving, reasonable people. The remaining 0.01% give the rest a bad name. Backwardness and narrow mindedness are not based in the religion. That is why there are or have been fanatics who commit atrocities in every religion. Violence and death is prescribed in many scriptures. For ex.:

Exodus 31:15
"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death."

You don't see many Christians killing people for working on Sunday do you? Which brings us in full circle. 99.99% of Muslims don't run around "smiting the unbelievers".

[VitaminG]

Stop with the Stryper Ron!!

Hey, didn't they wear yellow and black leg warmers..??

weren't they just yellow bathmats taped to their legs with black insulation tape?

[Tashtego]

... 99.99% of Muslims are really peace loving, reasonable people...

Well, that is what I think is the crux of the dispute. What I see are throngs of Moslems taking to streets and braying "death to America" every chance they get. Not in Turkey but I wasn't sure whether to attribute that to Turkish sensibilities or the army's suppression. Especially given the popularity of VofW and its reported content. In today's world you will never see Jews or Catholics or Protestants taking to the streets cheering, passing out candy etc because thousands of Moslems are dying due to some military action or natural disaster. This is commonplace throughout the arab Moslem world. I don't think 99.99% are peace loving and reasonable. Neither do more than half of other Americans if polls are correct. Actually, I believe the hostility to Islam is underreported. The world would be lucky if it's 50/50 between bloodthirsty savage fanatics and reasonable peaceful worshippers. Even if it is 50/50 or something like, the bloodthirsty savages are at the helm of some of the states.
I agree it is possible for any religion to breed fanaticism and cruelty. However, Islam is doing so today, on a huge scale. Ataturk recognized Islam as harmful and ruthlessly suppressed it from civil, military, and even many cultural aspects of the life in the Turkish republic. I think the whole world should follow that example and stamp out Islam's caustic influence wherever it is found, by any means necessary.

[levantin]

Well, that is what I think is the crux of the dispute. What I see are throngs of Moslems taking to streets and braying "death to America" every chance they get.

Wouldn't you be on the street screaming if your country was invaded by a foreign power? How about if a country you shared your ethnic and cultural background with? I think this is irrelevant to the debate about violence in Islam.

Not in Turkey but I wasn't sure whether to attribute that to Turkish sensibilities or the army's suppression. Especially given the popularity of VofW and its reported content.

VotW has not said anything anti-American in the 5 years that it has been on the air. This issue came up in the 2nd film the series has spawned, probably just to tap in to the frustration with U.S. Mid-East policy that is growing for various reasons, one being the event I have mentioned above, another being that the terrorist scum bags called the PKK are being allowed to roam free in Northern Iraq, and make sorties over the border into Turkey to attack us. Also, the largest number of non-Iraqi civilians captured by these terrorist shit-bags in Iraq are Turks. In addition, Iraq was one of Turkey's biggest trading partners (before the first Gulf War. When the war broke out, the President of Turkey shut the pipe line, and it has been closed ever since), as is Iran. Anyhow, we have no major beef with the U.S.. Agreed, many Turks don't like the fact that Iraq was invaded, or don't agree with U.S. foreign policy, however, the U.S. is our friend and ally, and has been throughout the history of the republic.

In sum, VotW was already famous for another set of reasons that I won't go into now, before their anti-American storyline.

In today's world you will never see Jews or Catholics or Protestants taking to the streets cheering, passing out candy etc because thousands of Moslems are dying due to some military action or natural disaster. This is commonplace throughout the arab Moslem world. I don't think 99.99% are peace loving and reasonable. Neither do more than half of other Americans if polls are correct. Actually, I believe the hostility to Islam is underreported. The world would be lucky if it's 50/50 between bloodthirsty savage fanatics and reasonable peaceful worshippers. Even if it is 50/50 or something like, the bloodthirsty savages are at the helm of some of the states.

Please refer to my first point. In addition, the Arab Muslim population (roughly 150 million Muslims) in the Middle East is still a drop in the ocean (more than 1.5 billlion Muslims world wide) I am not an Arab and I can't speak for them, but I guess that many are angered over Western influence in the Middle East. My point is that this may be an Arab phenomenon, that is mis-attributed to Islam in general. In any case, the proportion of those who "bray death" is very low. 1000 people may seem like an army on a TV screen. Hence the 99.99% estimate.

I agree it is possible for any religion to breed fanaticism and cruelty. However, Islam is doing so today, on a huge scale. Ataturk recognized Islam as harmful and ruthlessly suppressed it from civil, military, and even many cultural aspects of the life in the Turkish republic. I think the whole world should follow that example and stamp out Islam's caustic influence wherever it is found, by any means necessary.

We call this secularism. In the West, the general idea is widely known as the seperation of church and state.

And btw, I am not a Muslim, and I'm living in a predominantly Muslim society. If Islam was really what people make it out to be, they would have killed me by now Oh, and it's mullah mullah derka derka.

[Tashtego]

Wouldn't you be on the street screaming if your country was invaded by a foreign power? How about if a country you shared your ethnic and cultural background with? I think this is irrelevant to the debate about violence in Islam.

The mass demonstrations with ritual chanting for blood and death predate the latest Iraqi conflict, transcend the borders or Iraq, and are always exclusively composed of Moslems. Would I take to the streets and howl for death if some country invaded my backwards hellhole country, shutdown the rapatoriums etc, and expended enormous blood and treasure trying to help my countrymen set up representative gov? Would I take to streets and ululate gleefully because my coreligionist managed to kill an extraordinary number of Moslem civilians somehow? Would my old granny do so?

Please refer to my first point. In addition, the Arab Muslim population (roughly 150 million Muslims) in the Middle East is still a drop in the ocean (more than 1.5 billlion Muslims world wide) I am not an Arab and I can't speak for them, but I guess that many are angered over Western influence in the Middle East. My point is that this may be an Arab phenomenon, that is mis-attributed to Islam in general. In any case, the proportion of those who "bray death" is very low. 1000 people may seem like an army on a TV screen. Hence the 99.99% estimate.

Actually, the most recent demonstrations in Iraq were reported to number in the 100s of thousands. 150 Mil is 10%, significant by itself but doesn't include the Persians or Pakis who appear to be at least as bad. Who knows what percentage of the 500Mil Indonesian Moslems are fanatical Islamic psychopaths but it isn't 0. India continues to struggle with its own huge Moslem population. It is certainly safe to say there is a significant subset of Moslems who are not peace loving and reasonable and that they wield significant power and influence within the Islamic world.

We call this secularism. In the West, the general idea is widely known as the separation of church and state.

And btw, I am not a Muslim, and I'm living in a predominantly Muslim society. If Islam was really what people make it out to be, they would have killed me by now Oh, and it's mullah mullah derka derka.

Your example only illustrates my point. You are able to live well in Turkey, a predominantly Moslem country, precisely because Turks have spent the last 90 years suppressing Islam. Were you to move to Saudi-Arabia for example, you would not enjoy the legal status and civil liberties you do in Turkey. The difference is directly attributable to Islam.

You probably are aware of the distain and contempt Turks generally have towards Arabs. Arabs are found to be disgusting and uncivilized. Rental properties / vacation spots / hotels routinely exclude Arabs because they are literally disgusting swine. This is not an example of religious prejudice but a rational response to actual experience. Islam shapes the Arab mind and culture and the result is plain for all to see.

[levantin]

The mass demonstrations with ritual chanting for blood and death predate the latest Iraqi conflict, transcend the borders or Iraq, and are always exclusively composed of Moslems. Would I take to the streets and howl for death if some country invaded my backwards hellhole country, shutdown the rapatoriums etc, and expended enormous blood and treasure trying to help my countrymen set up representative gov? Would I take to streets and ululate gleefully because my coreligionist managed to kill an extraordinary number of Moslem civilians somehow? Would my old granny do so?

Actually, the most recent demonstrations in Iraq were reported to number in the 100s of thousands. 150 Mil is 10%, significant by itself but doesn't include the Persians or Pakis who appear to be at least as bad. Who knows what percentage of the 500Mil Indonesian Moslems are fanatical Islamic psychopaths but it isn't 0. India continues to struggle with its own huge Moslem population. It is certainly safe to say there is a significant subset of Moslems who are not peace loving and reasonable and that they wield significant power and influence within the Islamic world.

Your example only illustrates my point. You are able to live well in Turkey, a predominantly Moslem country, precisely because Turks have spent the last 90 years suppressing Islam. Were you to move to Saudi-Arabia for example, you would not enjoy the legal status and civil liberties you do in Turkey. The difference is directly attributable to Islam.

You probably are aware of the distain and contempt Turks generally have towards Arabs. Arabs are found to be disgusting and uncivilized. Rental properties / vacation spots / hotels routinely exclude Arabs because they are literally disgusting swine. This is not an example of religious prejudice but a rational response to actual experience. Islam shapes the Arab mind and culture and the result is plain for all to see.

Firstly, thanks for the reponses. It's refreshing to get past "jihad derka derka"

Secondly, I think the "mass demonstration" you refer to in Iraq numbering over 150K is the gathering of the Shia Muslims at their holy places, please correct me if I'm wrong. This is a religious meeting, and not originally orientated as a protest towards the West. Under the current climate, I wouldn't be surprised if some element of protest was included. On your other example, may be you wouldn't be in the streets, but some people would. Unfortunately, your granny could be a psychopath. In fact, old people are more likely to be conservative.

My experience living in a Muslim society and in an area in close proximity to the "danger zone" is as I have described. Maybe my 99.99% estimate is biased on that experience. My point in giving the 150 Mil figure was to provide an approximate number of Arab Muslims (Iraq - 28 M, Saudi - 24 M, Iran - 70 M, Syria - 25 M, various other smaller populations as well) living in the Middle East. As you put it, the number we are looking for is that of fanatical psychopaths, and I don't think any society can survive with a large proportion of psychopaths. Anyhow, we could debate numbers untill we are blue in the face, so anything short of organizing a survey and asking "are you a brutal psycopath" is speculation

Thirdly, what I don't agree with in your reasoning is that you say that Islam is suppressed in Turkey. Sharia supporters are suppressed, prosecuted and jailed with good reason. However, the Sharia is only one interpretation of Islam. The majority is Sunni Muslim and is not suppressed at all. They worship and spread their view of Islam freely and get along fine with other communities. The point is, not all Muslim's are Sharia supporters, not even in Saudi and Iran. Quote from above, "the difference is directly attributable to Islam" - No, it is attributable to an interpretation of Islam which not all Muslims endorse. That is not the matter of debate. What we can't agree on is the proportion of those who endorse it fanatically.

Of course I am thankful that the country I live in is not run under Islamic law.

I hope that it is clear to you that I have no sympathy for terrorist scum. I am not trying to justify people burning flags and all, but I can see why people are driven to do what they are doing.

[YetAnotherOne]

Maybe my 99.99% estimate is biased on that experience. ... As you put it, the number we are looking for is that of fanatical psychopaths, and I don't think any society can survive with a large proportion of psychopaths.

I assume we could, at least temporarily and for the sake of argument, equate the belief that it is proper for Islamic terrorists to carry out suicide bombings against civilians with the sort of fanatical psychopathic natures at issue here. The latest Pew Global Attitudes Survey asked just such a question of Muslims in various nations:



The most troubling numbers there aren't the 50%+ positive responses in some Muslim nations but the 25-35% positive responses by Muslims living in several western nations. Presumably those self-selected mostly immigrant groups include Muslims who are among the most tolerant and modern anywhere in the Islamic world yet religious violence against the innocent is sanctioned by significant pluralities of those populations.

[Tashtego]

Hi Levantin, well, hopefully Turkey is model that these other places can follow rather than Iran or Saudi Arabia but I'm not holding my breath. I didn't think you were defending the Islamic war on modern civilization. I understood you to be objecting to a general condemnation of Islam based on the actions of a subset of the adherents.
I hesitate to argue about Turkish history with a Turkish citizen but I will ask, how can you characterize Ataturk's model for and implementation of the modern Turkish society without acknowledging the supression of Islam. Not the murder of every Moslem cleric for sure, but still many legal restrictions on practise and influence of Islam. In fact, Moslems are more free to observe Islamic prescriptions for behavior here in the US than in Turkey. It isn't just banning headscarves or burkas or Fez's. The army has intervened in the democratic process numerous times to throw out elected officials who were trying to integrate Sharia law (Islamic law) into Turkish law.

[Tashtego]

Those numbers you show YAO are part of the source of my estimate of something like 50%. That Pew poll and others are supported by seeing with my own eyes or getting other first-hand accounts of the mass support for and encouragement of the cruel and viscous behaviors and outspoken unabashed genocidal intents of the Islamic irregular armies and the Islamic states that support them.

[MBreinin]

Let's face facts. These people are dedicated to two causes, the destruction of the State of Israel and the death of as many Americans as they can cause. Nothing more. They use insidious means to influence the populace, usually in the guise of assistance. Who runs the majority of facilities in Lebanon that disperse aid? Hezbollah. What happens to the families of "Martyrs" who blow up innocent civilians? Cash and lifetime support, as well as their child being honored as a hero.

Unfortunately, our government is forced to fight a selective war against these enemies, because they or their allies are sitting pretty on the largest obtainable oil reserves in the world, and we are slaves to the crude. If these nations did not have oil and were still harboring, financing or encouraging these terrorist acts we would obliterate them.

Mark my words, there is no greater threat to the security of the WORLD than these Islamic extremists. How do you fight an enemy who does not value even his own life? I think we learned that lesson the hard way in Vietnam. An enemy who does not care if he dies is damn hard to defeat and all of the technology, training and superior firepower can shrink in the face of this enemy...because he will not stop until he is eradicated, like vermin.

There is no way, NO WAY, we are going to win this war if we continue on this course. I fear everyday for my son. He is almost 9. In 9 years he could lying dead in the sand while we still fight this nemesis...

TOTAL COMMITMENT or NO COMMITMENT.

I realize that not all arabs and muslims share these views. However, they are not rididng their nations of these cancers, they are not assisting the world in bringing down this machine. If it came down to brass tacks, they would support these murderers before they would support a Westerner.

I honestly do not know exactly how we should follow the path of total commitment. Part of me says let's give them an example of what will befall them if they do not turn the corner....vaporize a city in toto. However, that may just galvinize them, it could be a call to arms...a rally to fight even harder.

You cannot change attitudes. You can't hand out Hershey bars and expect to simply stroll in and install "The American Way". It will not work. We are dealing with an entirely different culture.

I really am at a loss, and I am pissed. I am also humiliated that we can't get the job done and equally humiliated that Israel didn't get the fucking job done this last time around either.

They are gaining ground, they are becoming more organized......they don't need million dollar smart munitions...they instill fear with improvised explosives and fucking swords, SWORDS. We are running scared, people.

Mike

[danastas]

The day after Septmeber 11, there were mass demonstrations in Iran, Turkey and Syria, tens of thousdans. What were they doing? A candlelight vigil for the dead Americans in the WTC.

In Palestine, they were cheering. Because they hate Americans. And they hate Israelis. Enough said there.

Can you distinguish between these two groups? All of them are Muslim. but only one group was cheering post 9/11.

If you're going to take little bits out of an ancient text and say the religion's adherents are fundamentalists, you'll make people out to look like loons. It's pretty easy. We have our own fundamentalists. The bible in a few instances actually advises men to sleep with their daughters, and, one good way to be kind to your neighbors is to let them gang rape your daughters. Whoever takes this stuff seriously is obviously way off in the head.

The way to beat terrorists is to find them and arrest them the way the Brits did. I have no idea what we're doing in Iraq other than letting Iran get a foothold and driving a lot of new recruits to bin Laden.

[YetAnotherOne]

Let's face facts. These people are dedicated to two causes, the destruction of the State of Israel and the death of as many Americans as they can cause. Nothing more.

I disagree Mike. They seem to be intent on spreading their vision of civilization as far and as quickly as possible with the goal of eventually overwhelming all others. If we're willing to listen, even to our own "moderates", they'll tell us precisely what it is they want to do:

CAIR really only cares about the interests of one nation -- the nation of Islam -- and its own leaders are on record stating their desire to replace our constitutional democracy with a fascist society (as we know it) represented by sharia law.

"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant," CAIR co-founder Omar Ahmad once told a Muslim audience in Fremont, Ca. "The Quran should be the highest authority in America."

Lest anyone think he was misquoted, CAIR's own spokesman, Dougie "Ibrahim" Hooper, let it slip to the Minneapolis Star Tribune that he essentially wants the same thing: "I wouldn't want to create the impression that I wouldn't like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future."

As much as anything the coming conflict will be a war of ideas. We cannot hope to prevail and preserve our way of life until and unless a significant majority of people in secular western nations acknowledge that our way of life is worth preserving. That will require their recognizing that our way is preferable to (rather than equivalent to and not better than) the alternatives. Clearly we have a looooooong way to go.

[toejam]

What's a facist? Is that like a fat racist? :ROTF: I think we're looking for the word fascist.

[MBreinin]

I used to laugh at my 85 year old Uncle, who is a staunch right winger and full bird colonel who fought in the Battle of the Bulge. He considers this the 9th Crusade (or whatever number he quoted).

I am not sure that I am laughing anymore.

This just sickens me, see my posts in the Scientology Post. All of this killing in the name of religion, the greatest fantasy of all time.

Mike

[GodOfRhythm]

We should send the god warrior after 'em.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCODIhAXbQM