To those who hate Nirvana...

[Endrik]

I never considered bands like Ratt, poison, Cinderella, Motley Crue, etc. to be metal. I always saw them as glam rock, rock and roll and hard rock, but never metal.

same here, I've always concidered them rock bands with metal elements.

RATT is like the 80's verison of old Aerosmith meets Van Halen but some songs like Lay It Down sound more like metal.

Or Mötley, on their first records they sounded a lot like NWOBHM bands, but still they were more rock.
The starting riff of Dr. Feelgood is as metal as it gets, but the whole song is more groovier and sleazier than a usual metal song.
In 1994 with John Corabi, they made many really heavy metal songs, blues based southern metal with downtuned guitars and shit. They were dark as AIC then.

[hippietim]

I almost played a Nirvana song live once. I also almost played Sedated once too live. Both times I stopped the song around 10 seconds in and told the band and the crowd to kiss my ass. I would rather work in the kitchen at the club than play that dribble.

That says it all right there.

[VitaminG]

btw. Dee also said in Metal Sludge that Jani lane should get over his Cherry Pie crying bullshit. He did what he did, he can't deny it. He made tons of money and got tons of pussy because of that. I agree, what the fuck he is bitching about, 7 time platinum and tons of $$$$$$.

I fully get the resentment. It's a bit like Don MacLean with American Pie. Or the Stones & Satisfaction. Or Ralph McTell with Streets of London. Procol Harum with Whiter Shade of Pale. All artists that have become somewhat defined by that One Big Hit. I know the Stones have had a bunch of other hits, but Satisfaction is that one song that always has to be in the setlist. You have 40 years of material to draw from, wouldn't you get sick of playing the same song every bloody night? But the fans demand it.

I'll try painting a little scenario:
So you have a massive hit with a song that was quickly cobbled together because the label demanded a single for the album. It didn't mean much to you, a catchy little throwaway number that might hook a few people that mightn't necessarily buy your album, and once they hear the rest of the songs on the album, the ones that you've invested some time into and are quite proud of, they'll be fans for life. Right?

The song hits HUGE!! People start to pay attention and you start to get invites to play on every chat/late night show across the country. If it hits big enough, you're doing the same thing around the world. But all you're asked to do is play this one song. So you're playing this song that you didn't much care for in the first place everywhere. Every tv appearance you make, you play The Hit. Acoustic versions of the song in the radio stations. Turn on the MTV to catch some tunes, and there's that frikkin' song again. Your entire career & band is all wrapped up in this one song.

Imagine 10/20/30 years later when you're touring to support your latest album. You feel that you've really grown as an artist & making the best music of your life, despite occasionally turning up in "where are they now?" articles (if anyone remembers you well enough to think to include you), and the last couple of albums aren't selling a fraction of what the old one's did when you had your big hit. But now you want to get out on tour & play the new songs to a hopefully receptive audience. It's good music & you want it to be appreciated.

But all that the fans that come out want to hear is The Big Hit. You've never managed to release a song that charted or sold as well since. No one seems to give a shit about the new songs, and heckle you until you play that one song.

I imagine after a few years, that would get pretty fucking tired. Especially if you considered The Big Hit less than your best work, that the sheeple unfortunately latched onto and made a huge hit. That shit could haunt you.

Cherry Pie became a bit of a hit over here too, and I so disliked it that I never listened to another tune by Warrant. Over the years on the JCF, I've noticed quite a few members have, or have had, Uncle Tom's Cabin in their setlists. Seems that as sucky as that one song was, they were able to write a decent tune. I really felt for Jani talking about that song and how it effected the rest of his career.

[horns666]

G..Jani Lane used to hang/live around here..a local guy Billy Morris is in Warrant..I know Billy pretty well..so does John..

I know by just word of mouth that a lot of chicks still dig that dude and the whole 80's scene in genral, Billy always got puss..I was trying to write a song for his woman once, she's totaly hot, he publicly treat her pretty brutally.. Jani certainly seems very bitter and his appearence is nothing as it was..but he's lucky to still have a pretty good fanbase..I'm sure he has to do the Cherry Pie thing..including unplugged versions and everything.. but it's a living.

Better than diggin' ditches..I'd guess.

On a much smaler scale there was a song we wrote that I always loathed with a passion, we had to play it live often..I couldn't imagine that piece of crap becoming huge and having to play THAT for the rest of my life..Hell, where's that ditch and shovel..

wow, it's just dawned on me Billy Morris recorded that crappy song for us..weird

[Adam]

Alright, I've got a few issues with this thread:

1.) To those who make comments like "I'm glad Kurt Kobain killed himself" and worse: Get a grip. I don't care if you liked Nirvana's music or not - comments like that are in extremely poor taste. I shouldn't need to explain why. I will thank you, though, for giving me valuable insight into the way your mind works and just how seriously I should bother to take anything you say (in this thread and others). Saves me time, and time = money.

2.) Unless you were really into Nitro and Trixter, I honestly don't understand why anyone would blame Nirvana and subsequent bands from the era for ruining metal. It's already been established in this thread (and rightfully so) that the stuff permeating the airwaves under the title of "metal" was anything but.

I honestly think AiC, early Soundgarden, Nirvana, etc. were a lot closer to true metal than any of those 80's sock-in-the-pants bands. They had BIG sounding distorted guitars, heavy drums, singers who didn't sound like they'd had their nuts stepped on, and one more thing that most popular "metal" from the 80's sorely lacked: some fucking aggression!

3.) The identification of "grunge" as a genre. It's a really crappy classification term, but I understand why we use it. Most of the pioneering "grunge" bands didn't sound anything like each other. It was a whole movement of music where all the bands actually sounded different. The only thing they had in common was that they took rock back closer to it's roots. There weren't dozens of new bands sounding the same until the major labels started the cloning experiments, so a genre classification based on their actual sound would never have worked. You would have needed a paragraph, so.... grunge it is.

4.) Grunge didn't kill the guitar solo. Read that again, please. Most grunge bands actually had guitar solos in their songs. Listen to AiC. Jerry Cantrell is an extremely talented, musical guitarist. Even Nirvana had guitar solos in their songs. Sure, they just followed the vocal line, but they were there. If you want a band to blame as the forebears of the current pop-rock garbage that's everywhere now, BLAME KORN. Korn, and the hundreds and hundreds of bands who sound just like them are the ones who replaced our guitar solos with some rapping over a silly post-production guitar effect break. We're still hip-deep in worthless nu-metal bands singing about hating their parents thanks to that band.

5.) horns666 needs therapy.

6.) I will never understand why people latch onto and will only listen to or be receptive to one or two specific types of music. That's so weird to me. I like all kinds of music - from The Moody Blues and Alison Krauss to Necrophagist and The Haunted, but it's obvious that most people don't. Frank Black (of the Pixies - a huge influence on Kobain) had a great quote recently about this:

"I feel like a lot of people that are so-called ‘music fans,’ they’re kind of like little kids. They’re like ‘No, I don’t like carrots, I don’t like broccoli. I only like potatoes and corn.’ ... I was a little disappointed, frankly, that people are so uptight about their music.”

[Endrik]

I honestly think AiC, early Soundgarden, Nirvana, etc. were a lot closer to true metal than any of those 80's sock-in-the-pants bands. They had BIG sounding distorted guitars, heavy drums, singers who didn't sound like they'd had their nuts stepped on, and one more thing that most popular "metal" from the 80's sorely lacked: some fucking aggression

please save us from the bullshit.

Lane was a great singer, so was Cornell but the others blew donkey cock.
Cobain and Vedder influenced millions of kids to whine instead of singing.
There were no whining type of vocals before the 90's in mainstream rock music.

A lot of 80's singers didn't had a lot of power, but most of them could have been a decent pop singers. They all sang melodically.

That being said, what has grunge offer against the likes of David Coverdale, Mike Matijevic, Sebastian Bach, Geoff Tate, Jeff Soto etc.

[horns666]

"5.) horns666 needs therapy."
I go once a week!!

I think it's workin' kinda..

but if it don't ..I don't give a fuck..:ROTF:

[Endrik]

dude Korn made their first album in '94, solos were all dead by then

[Endrik]

good points Gary and Bill,

Jani really wanted to make more serious music ala Uncle Tom's Cabin wich is a kick ass song and VERY well made, who denies it must be a fool, just listen to those leads and all the different riff sections.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syQ55xHq1yw

Atomic-bat's pal Tommy Girvin played on this one

[Adam]

please save us from the bullshit.

Lane was a great singer, so was Cornell but the others blew donkey cock.
Cobain and Vedder influenced millions of kids to whine instead of singing.
There were no whining type of vocals before the 90's in mainstream rock music.

A lot of 80's singers didn't had a lot of power, but most of them could have been a decent pop singers. They all sang melodically.

That being said, what has grunge offer against the likes of David Coverdale, Mike Matijevic, Sebastian Bach, Geoff Tate, Jeff Soto etc.

I write that whole big post, and this is what you latch onto? Differences in vocal styles?

Ok. Sure - Coverdale and Bach were/are great vocalists, and Tate is one of my all-time favorites, but those guys were the exception - not the rule. I was only making the comparison that most of the early grunge singers sounded different, and didn't all sing predictable vocal runs in the absolute shrieking upper registers.

Look, I'm NOT trying to say that Kobain was the reincarnation of John Lennon. I'm not trying to say that the grunge era was the greatest music ever. I'm not even trying to say the music of the late 70's and 80's was bad, or inferior to grunge.

The point is this - the grunge era of the 90's was a relevant, necessary cleansing of popular music's collective ears. The 80's thing had been taken to it's furthest extreme and butt-violeted by a hot pink microphone wearing a leg-warmer by a bunch of crappy MTV bands who we can all agree were shit anyway. It was time for something fresh.

Music and culture are cyclical. When the music of your hey-day dies out, don't blame whatever hot new thing took it's place. That's inevitable.

Blame time, if you must.

dude Korn made their first album in '94, solos were all dead by then

No, they weren't. The solos were more blues-based and not as fast, but they were there.

[Endrik]

Upper register rules, great singing is like a great guitar solo.

That being said, I don't blame anything, I don't hate Nirvana or the whole grunge thing. I just perfer the 80's thing when everything was about having fun and drinking a shot of JD between huge boobs

[Endrik]

No, they weren't. The solos were more blues-based and not as fast, but they were there.

to me they were. Slash, Gary Moore, John Sykes etc. all did great blues based solos.

Durning the 90's solos sounded like some random bullshit.

I perfer no solos over crappy solos.

[horns666]

Adam, dude don't ask our opinion if you don't want it..

If you like Grunge, good for you man, enjoy it and leave it at that.

Perception is reality..no changing' that..my perception is MY reality and I'll tell it like I see it.

So, here's some "advice"..take it or leave it.

Remeber this, ..I been here a pretty long time and I'm known to be outspoken..don't bang heads over taste on amps and music..there is MUCH more valid reason to bang heads..amps and music ain't one of them!!

A attack on a band or amp is NOT a attack on you ..no matter how much you like it..because some good people here always won't..boy, how do I know that??!!

Save the rage for those who deserve it..if someone here F's your ol' lady up the ass against her will..go to it man..you got my blessing..Fuck, gimme a call and I'll give you a hand!!

Make sense..

Bill Z Bub

[horns666]

Adam just the sight of your avatar and intial overall demeanor..rubbed me wrong from the get go..I gotta be honest.

maybe I'm reading more into something I shouldn't..but this backlash just confirms my suspicion.

so let me ask.. how old are you?

[hippietim]

Ok. Sure - Coverdale and Bach were/are great vocalists, and Tate is one of my all-time favorites, but those guys were the exception - not the rule. I was only making the comparison that most of the early grunge singers sounded different, and didn't all sing predictable vocal runs in the absolute shrieking upper registers.

the number of great vocalists that sang grunge music is very limited. and dude, most of them were predictable as hell. they'd whine and drone and then their voice would crack. wow.

eddie vedder sounded pretty good on the first pearl jam album - i really liked that one. but after that it was torture.

layne staley was amazing. very unique. he and cantrell were a fantastic combo.

that dude in soundgarden could sing and soundgarden actually had some great tunes but a large number of their songs suffered from sounding like dying cats.

the first two stone temple pilots discs were pretty good. the dileo brothers wrote some good grooves and that junkie singer sounded really good on those discs. but after that they sounded like canned ass.

Look, I'm NOT trying to say that Kobain was the reincarnation of John Lennon.

well if he was the reincarnation of john lennon it does explain why john took his own life.