Cliff Burton...20 years gone.

[Newc]

Was never into Metallica when everyone else was - to me it was Punk played faster and lots of shouting - my brother tried to get me into them by playing Fight Fire With Fire. Still don't care too much for that kind of tempo/time signature - too "out" for me.

Once I heard the tracks after that, and the "less-busy" stuff from Puppets, I got into them. Their Iron Maiden-influenced harmonies impressed me enough to not label them thieving heretics

Years go by and I learned all of Lighting, Puppets, and Justice, and most of Black (except the leads of course - yes, I suck worse than Hammett )
Learned a few tracks from Kill 'em All, but didn't care for most of it (still too much like shouting punks than musicians).

And yeah, Larstallica need to let the dead die, because what Larstallica has become would probably make Cliff very unhappy, and I'm sure if they stopped to think about Cliff, they'd stop to think of how they've sold out and gone wuss.

[Infernal Death]

RIP Cliff, he was a great bass player.

Well i am not sure if Cliff would be unhappy today if he would still live and being Metallica's bass player. Yes the Cliff of 1986 would hate Metallica as it is today but that probably also goes for the James of 1986. The difference is that we will never know the Cliff of 2006.
Personally i simply don't care for Metallica anymore. I still love all the old stuff but i don't bear a grudge against their newer stuff. Being 40 years old and having multiple millions of $ on your bank account just doesn't let you play the angry kid anymore. Everybody gets older, so why not Metallica ?
Cliff would surely also be a different person now.

Flo

[Top Jimmy B]

Well stated, Flo.

[UFORocks]

What, let the dead die, but keep on playing their songs, the songs that put you where you are today? I think not! Play the songs, pay the respects due publically, appease people like me who look at Metallica and think they disappeared up their own arse long ago.

I think you're confusing "moving on" with "Forgetting". I dont think they should forget about Cliff, but I also dont think they should resurrect him every year, which we on this thread have done. He's dead man. He was a damn good bassist, but he himeself was not metallica, THEY were/are ALL 'metallica'.

[lerxstcat]

Yes, but on the 20th anniversary of the most earth-shattering event in the history of Metallica, they couldn't put a "RIP, we miss ya bro" on their fucking website? I would think Lars at least would see it as a smart move to at least pretend that they care. But they lost their heart and soul when they lost Cliff. He was the conscience and ethic of the band. Not to acknowledge the 20 year anniversary is chickenshit.

[Firebird V]

RIP. I was never into them until I heark MOP too. RTL and MOP were the two best albums they ever did IMO. I wonder what direction they would have taken if Cliff had not been taken.

[Newc]

Being 40 years old and having multiple millions of $ on your bank account just doesn't let you play the angry kid anymore.
Flo

Does Mustaine know about this?

I can see maturing musically, but usually a band will either go off and do side projects or split up when they reach a point where what they're doing under one name has little in common with what that name is associated with.

Imagine Iron Maiden breaking off into "Party Metal" like Poison? It would no longer be Iron Maiden. Imagine Black Sabbath doing something like White Zombie - it would no longer be Black Sabbath.

It doesn't matter if it sells or not, it simply is not what the band is known for. Metallica did not slowly integrate different styles into their music over the years - there was a sudden change and a distinct difference between Justice and Black. When they matured enough to make that change, they should have matured enough to dissolve in order to preserve the legacy they built, rather than whore it out to radio and MTV.

[Infernal Death]

Well i guess you are right. I too think it would be better if they changed their name.
Metallica just now is such a big marketing machinery. Actually i am not sure if the band itself can easily decide to stop Metallica even if they want to. I don't want to know how many people are involved in Metallica right now. It just ain't only the four Horsemen anymore

there was a sudden change and a distinct difference between Justice and Black.

Can i read the name Bob Rock between the lines ?

Flo

[Endrik]

It's their name, they can do whatever they want with it. It's harder to promote new stuff with new name. I would use a famous name too.

And Bob has nothing to do with the songs of Black album, he didn't wrote them, the songs were allready done before they hired Bob, I've heard some demos, same songs as on the album. Bob just made them sound better.

[Infernal Death]

Yeah i just wonder if they got some contracts that basically doesn't let them do whatever they want with the product Metallica.
There surely are quite some people in that don't care about the music as they are in for the money.
The management and record label for one would surely not be happy about a name change. And normally as they have much money into metallica i am not sure if they don't have anything to say in this matter.

Yes maybe Bob didn't have an impact directly on the songs of the black album but he changed their way of thinking so much. Without Bob i don't think they would have gone the way they did. Don't get me wrong i think as a producer and mixing engineer Bob Rock is very good. But i think he simply was the wrong influence for Metallica, at least if you look at it with the eyes of the normal metal fan.
They started to think about writing songs that appeal more to the masses and how to get more air time on radio and mtv.
Yeah i guess you can say that they also got more professional.

Flo

[UFORocks]

Yeah i just wonder if they got some contracts that basically doesn't let them do whatever they want with the product Metallica.
There surely are quite some people in that don't care about the music as they are in for the money.
The management and record label for one would surely not be happy about a name change. And normally as they have much money into metallica i am not sure if they don't have anything to say in this matter.

Yes maybe Bob didn't have an impact directly on the songs of the black album but he changed their way of thinking so much. Without Bob i don't think they would have gone the way they did. Don't get me wrong i think as a producer and mixing engineer Bob Rock is very good. But i think he simply was the wrong influence for Metallica, at least if you look at it with the eyes of the normal metal fan.
They started to think about writing songs that appeal more to the masses and how to get more air time on radio and mtv.
Yeah i guess you can say that they also got more professional.

Flo

I dont know that I totally agree with that.
1.) I think I've seen them on MTV only a handfull of times in the last few years, and I think it was MTV2 actually. They've had what, 2 videos that actually got significant airplay
2.) If you look at their radio play, its pretty much just MOP songs, you very rarely hear anything else unless its fan requested. The exception to that being "madatory metallica" on some radio stations.

The black album really did appeal to more "mainstreem" fans, but who cares, it was a great album regardless. Lots of people say Metallica "sold out" with the black album, but really, how many of those people went and threw out their metallica albums because of it, or didnt end up buying the Black Album anyway.

Where they went down hill was with Load and Re-load, and St. Anger. And even still St. Anger was a decent album, just not good for Metallica...

Later,

Steve

P.S. Ok I dont really believe that, ST. Anger was a pile of shit... But you never know unless you try... right?

[Rsmacker]

WTF???? They pretty much deticated the whole last tour to Cliff (this year), and kept his legacy alive. No need to mention it every day people. Get over it.

Oh yeah, their "tour" - 1 gig in England, a 3 day festival, no 1 day passes, loadsamoney. Guess what? I didn't go, especially after the last time they pulled that trick and Lars overdid the Charlie and didn't turn up, leaving some half-arsed dwarf in a Kiss mask to bumble through a set, fulfilling their contractual obligations for them, and meaning I couldn't get my money back. No, once bitten, twice shy.

I actually have no problem with the direction they took after "Justice", they had to evolve to sell some serious records and keep expanding. If they had just tried to produce MOP2 it wouldn't have worked, seeing as Cliff was gone, they would have just gone round in circles and eventually fizzled out. In my eyes, they were maturing naturally, and taking an essential step towards mainstream acceptance and the resultant longevity.

It serves no purpose to imagine what Cliff would have thought about their direction, because we will never know. My original point was that if it hadn't been for Cliff's input at the start, when they were like any of us, ripped jeans and baseball boots, when they weren't "rock stars", just a fucking good band who kept their feet on the ground and worked hard, they wouldn't have had that solid fan-base who allowed them to evolve, and matured with them. They were just like your mate's band who made good, you wanted them to do well without disappearing up their own arse like Axel Rose. It could have been any one of our bands up there, you didn't have to be a pretty boy or a guitar prodigy or live in Hollywood and wear spangly stage outfits, they were jeans and t-shirts, just like any of us. (Only the slight problem of coming up with product as ground-breaking as Puppets, but that never stopped us, we were inspired)

For that reason, they should have noted the anniversary. Everything changed when Cliff died, it had to, obviously, they were in the machinery then and on their way up. A sad day but the dawning of a new era, far more important than marking the release of Puppets, IMHO.

FWIW also, I'll say that I thought Load and Reload were fine albums, what I would have expected from a band of 30-somethings, pioneers who became a household name. Yes they were a bit of a dinosaur, but then that comes with the territory, you dont sell squillions of LPs by being experimental and avant-garde. They were damned good Heavy Rock LPs.
They still sounded like Metallica to me, and just as I had stopped wearing a denim cut-off and ditched the mullet, we were maturing together. Still like that mate's band, but growing up, acting their age.

Then came St Anger.....well, I cried, I really did. What a pile of shit, sounded like a "mid-life crisis" LP to me, a band people admired and were influenced by (consciously or not) turned into a band trying to sound like someone else they had heard on the radio.
A bit like seeing your Dad turn up with an earring and a pony-tail in his new leather jacket and jeans, after 20 years of being like Al Bundy. Embarrassing.
They turned from being pioneers into a band that sounded like the bands they had originally influenced. There's only one way to go then - up your own arse until you disappear!

Well, I guess that's what happens when you are surrounded by brown-nosers and assistants telling you your shit doesn't stink!

I still live in hope though............

[UFORocks]

I still live in hope though............

Same here man, they had "IT" at one time, and hopefully they'll rediscover it. Apparently they're working on a new album, at least according to a video I found on their site, which may or may not still be there.

I wonder if they can make anything new that hasnt already been done. They influenced so many bands over the years, that they may just end up sounding like another band influenced by metallica, or maybe they'll just end up rehashing old work... Who knows. I guess we'll have to wait and see. But either way, I dont think they'll come out with anything we haven't heard before, which is sad.

But hey, I'm hopeful as well

[Subvamp]

I read a recent interview with Ross Halfin, where they were asking him about the stories behind some of his more famous pictures. One was of an early Metallica...standing in an alley, with everyone in black jeans and leather jackets except Cliff---same ol' blue jean bellbottoms and denim jacket. Ross said "The other guys took me aside and asked me to persuade him to change his attire. He told me to go fuck myself, and I got an instant respect for the man. I had the opportunity to photograph Metallica many, many times over their carear, and Cliff ran that band. After he passed, they changed drastically without his direction. And didn't change for the better".