I am in disbelief of this..

[Bert]

Universities do tend to be left-leaning, but they are not the bastions of "leftist orthodoxy" that the right-wingers here seem to think. One of the universities I attended was in Boston area, and I didn't run into any Stalinists. None of my humanities professors seemed to have any problem teaching without extreme policital bias (either left of right.) It seems that only the extreme right-wingers here have had a different experience, & I question if they really had that experience at all or just read about it from some right-wing propaganda site.

[Argos]

It seems that only the extreme right-wingers here have had a different experience, & I question if they really had that experience at all or just read about it from some right-wing propaganda site.

+1

[danastas]

I guess you haven't noticed that a bachelors of arts in history or english doesn't get you too far in the world anymore. It is a commonplace joke outside the ivory towers.

My students do really well with these degrees. Unless you mean by "it doesn't get you far" that they would be otherwise doing better than the 50k entry level jobs they're landing, not to mention all the lawyers, media, communications, advertising, public relations, etc. that are out there, the vast majority have humanities degrees.

I will counter that it is ludicrous to assert that the published work doesn't tell you about political persuation in the field of history and yes, often even english. A quick glance at the table of contents of current issue of the Oxford Journal of American Literary History reveals a number of articles that obviously have political context and content.

I'm waiting. Show me. I clicked on the link. Are you talking about race? Sexuality? Identity? Are those the political subjects you're talking about? Is this what people are concerned about? By politics, I thought you meant American party politics. I didn't realize you were talking about culture as well. Culture has ALWAYS been the interest of humanities departments. It's not a new thing.

http://alh.oxfordjournals.org/current.dtl#ARTICLES

I marvel that you have never come across the like in your career.[/QUOTE]

Never. Having read tens of thousands of articles, if not hundreds, I haven't seen anything in the field of English even implicitly interested in politics. I can't even imagine what an article like that would look like. I read the link you gave me, and I couldn't find a single English Studies article that took that interest.

[danastas]

When he tells you about the accomplishments of Communism in the USSR but doesn't tell you about Stalin starving 20 million Soviets to death to buy weaponry, he's spinning for Communism.

What the heck was the context for that statement, by the professor?

As I said, I work with these people day in and day out, at a few different universities, and the whole media onslaught is a caricature, one which I know is bought and paid for by certain people I can name. That's not to say it never happens. There are bad professors just like there are bad professionals and workers in any field. But I think the vast majority have really little incentive to politicize their classes largely because the administrations leave us alone, and our work 99% of the time never impinges on politics. Of course there are a few loonies out there like the guy from Colorado but I think the whole bash-academic thing is just a right-wing witchhunt.

[lerxstcat]

The context was European history leading up to World War II and the professor was basically ranting against the crowned heads of Europe and went into a riff on how Soviet Communism was better for the Russian peasants than life under the tsars, due to collectivism being better for people who were serfs fairly recently. In his opinion they needed the collective farms at that point.

[VitaminG]

The context was European history leading up to World War II and the professor was basically ranting against the crowned heads of Europe and went into a riff on how Soviet Communism was better for the Russian peasants than life under the tsars, due to collectivism being better for people who were serfs fairly recently. In his opinion they needed the collective farms at that point.

how long ago did you get your degree, Rich? 20, 25-odd years? Unfortunate the guy seemed to be pushing his own agenda, but one experience doesn't make it representative of the whole profession. You are certainly intelligent enough to see it for what it was, I'm sure a large number of your classmates were too.

So does your experience all that time ago put to bed the notion that this is a only recent phenomenon, that a lecturer would proffer their own biased opinion, as some here would paint it? I do wonder just when the "good old days" actually were....

danastas, I had no idea you were a college prof. This thread has turned into an interesting read

[danastas]

I can imagine that any discussion of say European history and/or political science is going to get sticky because of the subject matter. In the profession, however, it's well known that these are fields in the humanities that have lots of conservatives.

Put it this way, if you're a professor with Scandinavian-style Socialist leanings you'll have a harder time getting tenured in business school or even economics department than a conservative political person will in an English dept. precisely because of your field of inquiry. It's the difference in subject matter. Plus, everyone scratches their head when they look at the Scandanvian countries because they are wealthy and relatively communist.

[Tashtego]

Universities do tend to be left-leaning, but they are not the bastions of "leftist orthodoxy" that the right-wingers here seem to think. One of the universities I attended was in Boston area, and I didn't run into any Stalinists. None of my humanities professors seemed to have any problem teaching without extreme policital bias (either left of right.) It seems that only the extreme right-wingers here have had a different experience, & I question if they really had that experience at all or just read about it from some right-wing propaganda site.

I think it is great that you didn't run into any Stalinists at the university you attended. However, the argument that because you did not they must not exist and that I must be an 'extreme right-winger' inventing them is very weak to say the least. I had direct experience with self identified Castro apologists and general communist sympathizers. Their politics informed the course material they presented and their grading decisions as arbiters of correct interpretation of historical events or literary art. The professor friends I mentioned earlier have years of experience with their colleages in both professional and social settings. They have related innumerable examples to me over the years of the extereme leftist political pursuation of a great deal of their colleages and how these political beliefs effect hiring, grading, tenure, etc.

My students do really well with these degrees. Unless you mean by "it doesn't get you far" that they would be otherwise doing better than the 50k entry level jobs they're landing, not to mention all the lawyers, media, communications, advertising, public relations, etc. that are out there, the vast majority have humanities degrees.

Yes, part of what I mean is that students can do a lot better than 50K entry level salary by pursuing majors other than the traditional humanities. I also mean that the general regard and esteem associated with a humanities major has declined. There are a number of factors involved but I think that the general public perception of a typical liberal arts education is that the education is deeply compromised by the lack of intellectual diversity and rigor.

I'm waiting. Show me. I clicked on the link. Are you talking about race? Sexuality? Identity? Are those the political subjects you're talking about? Is this what people are concerned about? By politics, I thought you meant American party politics. I didn't realize you were talking about culture as well. Culture has ALWAYS been the interest of humanities departments. It's not a new thing.

That is an entertaining demonstration of symantic gymnastics. Yes, race, sexuality and identity are all elements of the human condition that have political expressions. No, I was not constraining my definition of politics to the interplay of the two major US political parties. The fact that there is political content in a least some of the articles in the particular journal example is explicit and obvious right from the titles. I'm sure it isn't unique. My point in posting that link was to provide a number of example articles that are highly likely to allow the reader to infer the political world view of the author. Some you can make a good guess just from the title.

[danastas]

I think it is great that you didn't run into any Stalinists at the university you attended. However, the argument that because you did not they must not exist and that I must be an 'extreme right-winger' inventing them is very weak to say the least. I had direct experience with self identified Castro apologists and general communist sympathizers. Their politics informed the course material they presented and their grading decisions as arbiters of correct interpretation of historical events or literary art. The professor friends I mentioned earlier have years of experience with their colleages in both professional and social settings. They have related innumerable examples to me over the years of the extereme leftist political pursuation of a great deal of their colleages and how these political beliefs effect hiring, grading, tenure, etc.

I don't believe you. It's 100% against my lived experience. Frankly, given the tenor of right-wing attacks on academics in this country, I think it's all made up. As a matter of fact, I know it is. Horowitz is PAID big time mone for his attacks. My bro's friend is PAID. That's the bottom line.

Yes, part of what I mean is that students can do a lot better than 50K entry level salary by pursuing majors other than the traditional humanities. I also mean that the general regard and esteem associated with a humanities major has declined. There are a number of factors involved but I think that the general public perception of a typical liberal arts education is that the education is deeply compromised by the lack of intellectual diversity and rigor.

I can cite you any number of kids with computer science, accounting/business, degrees who do a lot worse. As for intellectual rigor, I'd say your point of view is very slanted, as evidenced by your whole tone from first post to the last.

That is an entertaining demonstration of symantic gymnastics. Yes, race, sexuality and identity are all elements of the human condition that have political expressions. No, I was not constraining my definition of politics to the interplay of the two major US political parties. The fact that there is political content in a least some of the articles in the particular journal example is explicit and obvious right from the titles. I'm sure it isn't unique. My point in posting that link was to provide a number of example articles that are highly likely to allow the reader to infer the political world view of the author. Some you can make a good guess just from the title.
[/LEFT]
[/CENTER]

I was talking about English courses. A course in New Black Politics is obviously political. But it's NOT an English course. It belongs in history or PoliSci. Get it? And if you're going to complaint hat people in the humanities are examining cultural topics like identity, race, gender and sexuality, then you should complain that the zookeeper takes care of animals as well. This is what we get paid to do. It's been the whole point of the humanities in the United States for over a century. Otherwise, you might as well argue that the fireman's job isn't to put out fires, it's to look good in his rubber boots.

So, let me get this straight, you have a bug up your ass because professors in English teach/study literary texts according to the particular viewpoints on race, gender, identity espoused in those texts. Is that right? And you're not talking about professors who openly take political sides, as sa you see on CNN or any blah-blah American political show. Is that right?

[horns666]

Stop chasing your tails a second and let me tell you a true story..

Professors..ehhh I'm not impressed, book smarts means absolutely NOTHING to me...I had my day with a professor. She was giving our police department a lesson on Cultural diversity and sensitivity..she was a articulate but very militant black women from Washington. She's went to various "diverse" inner-city police departments with very high crime.

She was shaking her finger at us in seconds ..blaming us for this and that..and that segregation is wrong and yada yada yada..literally yelling at us..it angered people immediately, but I found it amusing.

She was really on a roll, and simply refused to answer any questiions ..so many angry cops just blurted out their points, valid points..but nothing that was getting across to anyone..I just quietly held my hand up the whole time..

I'm known to be "funny" and say shit nobody dares to say..so I was getting much attention as I was holding my hand up..it was a diverse class 70+ police officers..who I know very well..

She continued to ignore me, but I distracted the class so much at this time..she had to call on me just so she could continue bashing our department..

Finally she says.."Yes, you need to say something"..

By this time I had refined exactly what I was going to say..which was .."Yes, maam, I do..what you say sounds all well and good in theory and on paper..but is not realistic, just look at this classroom. We are all brothers and sisters in blue and would back up each other in a heartbeat..there is my partner over there (Carl smiles and waves to me from across the room) ..We all work together and know each other very well. This classroom is open seating am I correct..these seats were not ASSIGNED to us correct??..she replied "no"..I continued "Exactly..look around, this classroom divided itself by race..this classroon IS indeed SEGREGATED!!!"

It certainly was ..as always..all the black cops were sitting on one side of the room..three hispanic cops were sitting in the middle and most of the white cops were on the other side of the room..where I was seated.

I said "This class is indeed segregated but there is no tension ..the ONLY tension I see is our viewpoints and yours..YOU brought this tension into a comfortable atmosphere..we just seated ourselves where we are comfortable..that's all."

She was speechless and her mouth just hung open as my class applauded me..

I continued while I had my chance and said.."You do this all the time, don't tell me you never observed or addresed this?"..she replied "No", shaking her head ..she always just did her thing and never noticed.

I was in the back of the room and at the end of that class..she stopped me when I was leaving and said that was very "insightful"..and asked if she could use this example in future lectures..I said sure. I told her, ..There some very important things you just can't learn from a book...people are often too busy thinking and can't see what is right in front of them..human nature.

Besides .."Racial Tension" justifies very, high profile Civil Rights positions..where would they be without it. Racial Tension has been VERY good to Al Shapton, Jesse Jackson and so on..including these professors with their own special interest and agendas.

This is Fact!

[lerxstcat]

how long ago did you get your degree, Rich? 20, 25-odd years? Unfortunate the guy seemed to be pushing his own agenda, but one experience doesn't make it representative of the whole profession. You are certainly intelligent enough to see it for what it was, I'm sure a large number of your classmates were too.

So does your experience all that time ago put to bed the notion that this is a only recent phenomenon, that a lecturer would proffer their own biased opinion, as some here would paint it? I do wonder just when the "good old days" actually were....

danastas, I had no idea you were a college prof. This thread has turned into an interesting read

I actually had to drop out and never got my degree, but yes, this was around 1980. I knew Stalin was evil, but I don't recall the 20 million dead being mentioned in high school, or until I actually took the specific WWII course. That professor was elderly and I would say very unbiased, compared to the younger prof who was probably in his late 40s or early 50s at the time.

Certainly I can see that Danastas, in the midst of it, can see that these things are magnified beyond the actual scope we see it as. However, having experienced it myself I think his dismissal of the idea is also denial of a phenomenon that does exist.

There's a fair amount of similarity between the mindset of college students in the late 70s-early 80s and those now. Idealistic, not so realistic outside of the ivory towers, as has been said. And all too many DO swallow the views of their favorite profs without much examination. Let's face it, a certain number of students are there to plumb the depths of knowledge, and some are there to party and put off the real world. Most are there to get a document - a degree - that will get them higher-paying work than is possible without it. They don't care about what's true so much as pleasing the prof to get the grade and the degree.

Call me jaded, but I think knowledge is not really the prime motivator in higher education nowadays.

[horns666]

I never went to college, I have no degrees..I barely finished high school..but I do exert a strong influence over most with common sense and logic.

Why is it called Common Sense when it's not common at all.

[danastas]

Certainly I can see that Danastas, in the midst of it, can see that these things are magnified beyond the actual scope we see it as. However, having experienced it myself I think his dismissal of the idea is also denial of a phenomenon that does exist.

Well, I did admit that it happens. Witness the Chuchill guy from Colorado. I never dismissed it. but I think the hysteria over it is pretty much manufactured. I hear a lot more examples of when a prof's subject matter gets twisted into what it's not, and I gave an example of it. I have no doubt that some faculty bend things and preach, but I chalk that up to their being bad instructors, people who are bad at their jobs, just as in any other profession. I also think it's rare, since I've yet to come across it in my own experience after years of teaching, and also after years of being a student. I'm sure if I had taken more History and PoliSci courses I might have a different point of view. But I didn't.

Regardless, discussing Stalin without mentioning the many millions he killed is pretty warped.

[horns666]

BTW..I didn't read all of this.. whatever this is..

In the time I been here I discovered that Rich does possess a very good balance of book smarts and common sense.

I always say that Rich "Gets it". I've always sensed that his words are conveyed with a geniune wisdom, wit and understanding that I find pretty rare.

I mean that!!

Bill Z

[lerxstcat]

Thanks Bill! I really do appreciate that!

I will say that I had VERY little common sense at all until I had to leave school and deal with the real world. We humans are much less evolved in our actual environments than is believed in the artificial environment of academia. Even in America which is a protected enclave this is true.