Ya know who really pisses me off?

[fett]

Ah, yes. The independent contractor/consultant. That's the only option left to a very talented group of people that got wasted by the Tech meltdown and the influx. At least they have a shot. The industrial worker that has lost his or her job to "those guys" has a snowball's chance in hell of ever making anywhere near as much money in a "New" job as they did. There is a meltdown in the incomes of just the "Average Joe" that has a family.

[Ralph E.]

My brother and I also have a clothing business that we tried to ressurect from the early 90's called Gorilla Wear (A company who prided itself on being MADE IN THE USA).

What we have learned in the last five years trying (and failing) to rebuild this business is that all the textile mills and sewing houses that existed in the U.S. throughout the 90's are gone. Literally, they are ALL gone.

The open trade with China in particular has destroyed all of them. There is NO WAY to compete with workers that accept the salary that Chinese employees do.

We have tried to continue the "Made In The USA" tradition, and frankly, it's become an impossibility in today's world. And for us to order from overseas, we need to place such a large order, that we cannot do it. You literally need millions today to launch a clothing company, once again taking away opportunity from the average american.

It has become a truly disgusting world.

[fett]

This is no help to you. But I try to buy all my used clothes or whatever with the "Made in USA" tag. That way I know they were well made. I can't turn back the clock, but I know the stuff I buy is quality. It trully is a sad time for a whole lot of people.

[RobRR]

Ah, yes. The independent contractor/consultant. That's the only option left to a very talented group of people that got wasted by the Tech meltdown and the influx. At least they have a shot. The industrial worker that has lost his or her job to "those guys" has a snowball's chance in hell of ever making anywhere near as much money in a "New" job as they did. There is a meltdown in the incomes of just the "Average Joe" that has a family.

You got that right... 6 prime years of my life wasted at Lockheed Martin building the Aegis Radar. And all for what, to be thrown out on the street? Thanks! Now Im struggling to make ends meet, cant support my family (g/f and her daughter), can barely pay for my house and cant find a job that pays near as much. Any Im supposed to be worrying about Africa? Fucking AFRICA? FUCK YOU BONO. Take your views and your gay assed fruity fucked songs and shove them up your opinionated ass.

[Ralph E.]

This is no help to you. But I try to buy all my used clothes or whatever with the "Made in USA" tag. That way I know they were well made. I can't turn back the clock, but I know the stuff I buy is quality. It trully is a sad time for a whole lot of people.

Unfortunately, another effect of what is going on is that "Made In The USA" doesn't mean what it used to anymore.

In an effort to compete with the foreign product, the quality of everything involved in the process has been lowered. From raw materials to workers skills.

[fett]

It does for me. Because I buy vintage stuff. I try as hard as hell to buy the "Real Made in USA" items. I know that it doesn't help the current people that are getting screwed, but it is my personal statement. Now, that doesn't apply to the guitars I buy. So, there may be a little conflict.

[Shawn Lutz]

So now i'm lazy? Thanks for that without knowing anything about me...

I worked/owned a small software distribution company for 18 years. I have done everything from programming, design, training, setup/installation, accounting, consulting... you get the point.

I have been told numerous times that there is no way any big company will touch an entrepreneur. I'm too much of an "independent thinker", they want "team" players. At 40, about to lose my house, no kids (and we did want them) I cannot (and will not) start over @ $30k. Not gonna happen.

So Shawn, bitter yes, lazy no.

Ralph, just so there is no confusionthe second part of my post wasnt directed at you personally, I know nothing about you. The only comment directed at you was the bitterness

[Ralph E.]

Ralph, just so there is no confusionthe second part of my post wasnt directed at you personally, I know nothing about you. The only comment directed at you was the bitterness

No problem Shawn, I appreciate it...

I was a bit fired up this afternoon with HT's "I know everything, you know nothing" attitude, and probably took yours out of context.

[jgcable]

I dont agree with you sir. Africa and many other countries need help. America has what problems? Let me see... where will anna nicole smith's body be buried, who is going to be the next president, will gas prices go up? There are 200 kids dying every day in Africa. Rich people like Bono and Gates just draw attention to the problem. Let them do their thing. If one does not want to contribute to the cause, dont stop in the way of people trying to do some good is my stand on the subject. America is spending $370 million per day ... or some huge amount like that for the war in Iraq. Just imagine how many kids can get food with that money.

I agree with the above statement 100%.
Give an American kid an Ipod and he will tell you its the wrong color. Many African kids walk miles in warzone neighborhoods with a 5 gallon bucket of water on their heads just for the chance to go to a school to learn something. We have way too many ungrateful lazy ass people in the USA who are only looking for hand outs and for some reason they think that the country OWES them something.
We are the richest lazyest country in the world. Most people in the USA don't appreciate shit. They just expect it and complain when they don't get it.
I say bravo to Bono, Oprah and anybody else who wants to help people who really appreciate it and have absolutely no fucking chance of getting it on their own.
Anybody with the will and desire to succeed in the USA can make it. This is the land of opportunity.
That is not the way it is in Africa. Not even close.

You know.. Bono is a zillionaire and he doesn't have to do shit for anybody and he certainly doesn't need to draw attention to himself. Neither does Oprah. They both do what they do because they are amazing people.
I wish I could be as giving and as caring to people as they are who they will never actually meet.
You may not like U2's music. You may not like Oprah's talk show but my feeling is that they are both like living saints.

[jgcable]

Oh yea.. and one more thing regarding this "Made in the USA" thing.
Mercedes Benz cars are made somewhere in the USA. They used to be made in Germany.
Now.. I am not the biggest fan of Germany because of that whole Nazi/Jew extermination thing... but I will admit that they make a great car.
Many of Mercedes cars are made in the USA now. USA citizens build them.
Mercedes is now ranked the most unreliable car you can buy.
Go figure... Made in the USA doesn't necessarily mean its better.
And another thing. The USA auto worker makes more than any other auto worker on the planet. They will also strike at the drop of a hat. GM and Ford can cut 30,000 jobs in middle management and it wouldn't affect crap. Many of those 30K jobs are held by people who lead departments that don't even exist anymore. These guys make $100K a year and they don't even do anything. I read an article stating that many of them didn't even have to show up at the plant. They just got paid. Thats a sure fire indication that a company has gotten too big and nobody is watching the ship. They watch as foreign companies clean their clocks with an efficient workforce.

What about the farm workers and factory workers who are illegal aliens. Why is this?? Its because most Americans won't do those jobs. They would rather sit on their lazy asses and collect welfare and complain that they aren't getting their fare share. The problem with the USA is that there are 2 different factions in the USA. There are the right wingers who believe in an capitolistic society. The problem with them is that most of them have already made it in corporate america or they are living off of old money.
Then.. there are the left wingers who believe in big government and think that the average joe is too stupid to make his own decisions and that the government should handle everything. They want a national healthcare system. They don't care that the Canadian system is a disaster. They want to control everything. They feel that the guy who busted his ass for 30 years and lived the american dream should give his money to the lazy corner standing crackhead who is down and out. They believe that winning is bad. Everybody should be neutral. Problem with them is that they don't care if we are paying $3.00 a gallon for gas as long as the spotted speckled ass birds natural habitat isn't disturbed.
You know why we don't use more natural gas in the US?? Its because of the left wing extremist environmentalists!! They would rather save the blue waddling fucktoad rather than building new natural gass processing terminals.
I love the USA but sometimes thinking about this stuff turns my stomach.

Bottom line.. Made in the USA isn't what it used to be because most of the stuff in the Made in the USA product was outsourced overseas.

[fett]

Double Yikes. This a great thread. Let it run.

[emperor_black]

Great points there jgcable! The quality of american made products (with respect to this forum, I mean guitars) has gone down the drain. There are many threads popping up about how bad gibson and jackson MIA guitars. When I bought my first Made in USA fender, I was like "why, oh why did I waste my money?"

Its Darwin's theory of evolution... 'survival of the fittest'. There's just too many talented people outside of the US and corporate america is just tapping out the potential. Of course, the same manager who hires indian workers and fires his american employees, might get fired sooner or later. But the only way to fight that is to work your ass off. Indian workers dont go to work at 10 and come home at 5. They dont take off at 3 PM on fridays. They work their ass off from 8 to 6 and during weekends. My VP is always at work! No wonder he's gonna survive in my company long after everyone's gone!

[fett]

We became smug decades ago and then we became complacent because no one could touch us. We did the right thing rebuilding Germany and Japan after WWII. They did what we did it spades. They made industrial giants of themselves after we "Beat" them. Legacy costs can date back 60 years for us. They started at 1 when we were already -3. India, China and all the rest can beat us now because they are starting at 1. It's history and we did it and now we are paying the price.

[Ralph E.]

This a great thread. Let it run.

Yes it is, and it will run as long as no one comes along and ruins it...

It's amazing to see the vast differences of views people have based on whether or not they are doing well in today's job market. I find it amazing that some here show more compassion for an illegal alien (who is breaking the law just being here) than they do for an educated law abiding US citizen who is being screwed by our own governments policies on immigration and work visas.

[RobRR]

You see, the American worker, now a days, is damned if they do, damned if they dont. Either they work fast, and run themselves out of a job faster. OR, they slow down, and eventually lose their job to cheaper foreign labor. Its really a tough situation to be in, especially speaking from manufacturing experience.

This country has MANY problems... it seems that every day were losing more and more freedoms, the government is taking more and more of our money, and the average joe is losing their jobs to foreign labor and unable to support his family.

So yes, we DO have many problems of our own right here... just because you may not be personally experiencing them, doesent mean they dont exist.