Ya know who really pisses me off?

[emperor_black]

Charvelguy,
Why is your company hiring illegals? My bet is because they work cheaper than Americans. That's the usual case. I live in Iowa, where there are a ton of meat packing plants that hire all kinds of illegals. They do that for 2 reasons, they work cheaper. And thus, the product is cheaper. No one complains when they pay cheap prices for meat or produce but then want to gripe about the problem. If we had to pay Americans to do those jobs salads would cost over $50 and steak over $100. That's just basic economics...

I'm not saying theres not a problem. But we seem to like to take advantage of it through the price we are willing to pay for stuff...

+1 to that.

But what people are missing is that this "lower" cost also means lower skill people are doing it. On the news I've heard that the houses built in the last 5 years are full of problems. Why? two out of three consturuction workers nowadays are latinos. Every damn product is going down in quality. The big guys will not be affected by this because they will get their custom hand-built quality stuff and they can afford to do that because they have saved a lot of money by hiring the illegals in the first place. But its us who suffer!

[emperor_black]

I totally agree with you...

Did Charvelguy delete his post? there is a difference though... slaves were beaten to death (literally) if they didnt produce quality products. but illegals already have a union to make sure they are treated right and given the right wages and stuff. There is a big big difference.

[SeventhSon]

Well Mandel was involved in terrorist acts that killed innocent people look into it and not on a tribute sight.

He has admitted as such and has lobbied for the ANC to admit as such in the Truth and Reconciliation effort. The same process by which thousands of Apartheid members admitted their own crimes against humanity (death squads, murder, etc.). So Mandela is a criminal in the same sense that past South African leaders were criminals. Mandela was on the weaker side, got caught, and was jailed. That's the only difference.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with Bono.

I have not contributed one dollar or minute of my time listening to his positions. In fact I thought his pet project was eliminating third world debt. Whatever.

My main point is that he's no different than any other dude with a personal opinion, including you. You win the lotto tomorrow, you've become him. People don't like yours or Bono's opinions? No reason to have a cow...just don't listen. His ideas either strike a chord with you or you think he's full of shit. Where's the drama in this?

[charvelguy]

Did Charvelguy delete his post? there is a difference though... slaves were beaten to death (literally) if they didnt produce quality products. but illegals already have a union to make sure they are treated right and given the right wages and stuff. There is a big big difference.

Not to belittle the plight and suffering of slaves and slavery of all types.
Slaves were brought into trade because they were captured by neighboring tribes who deemed them as enemies for whatever reason, made them as prisoners and sold as a commodity to become exploited by a market.

Maybe I'm shortsighted and ignorant on the topic at this time, but the nature of the oppressor and the oppressed hasn't really changed.. just the circumstances dictating the terms of civility, the times, the region.

A pimp and a his ho's are a slaver and slave relationship in my book.

[Ralph E.]

You really and truly have no ide what you are talking about there.

Ok, so now I can't read/watch the news either, funny how you always know better than everyone else. You really should get into politics, you remind me alot of GW. You never hear or care to understand anything but your view of the world and arrogantly demean anyone who offers a difference of opinion...

I'll remember those words when you lose your job to the brother of the guy you buy your slurpees from...

Not to mention that I have personally experienced EXACTLY that when I ran my software company. We ended up competing against guys from Denmark who worked for 25K/year (that was 8 years ago, the report the other day said avg. salary is now $50k) living in NY City. I just looked at these guys and was like, how are you doing that? Turns out they come over in groups, live in a small apartment with 3-5 together, and send money back home (untaxed, I might add). There is NO WAY to compete against this type of labor.

These "imported" workers work for an average of $50k, alot less than us "homegrown" workers. That is what the report said on the news (so blame them not me HT). Sorry, but that is all I need to hear, along with my experience of treatment being a white guy in today's job market.

This is all about the rich getting richer. Remember the movie "Freejack"? That's where we're headed. Two classes of people. Uber-rich and super-poor. There will be no middle class in 100 years.

[SeventhSon]

Ok, so now I can't read/watch the news either, funny how you always know better than everyone else...

I'll remember those words when you lose your job to the brother of the guy you buy your slurpees from...

Not to mention that I have personally experienced EXACTLY that when I ran my software company. We ended up competing against guys from Denmark who worked for 25K/year (that was 8 years ago, the report the other day said avg. salary is now $50k) living in NY City. I just looked at these guys and was like, how are you doing that? Turns out they come over in groups, live in a small apartment with 3-5 together, and send money back home (untaxed, I might add). There is NO WAY to compete against this type of labor.

These "imported" workers work for an average of $50k, alot less than us "homegrown" workers. That is what the report said on the news (so blame them not me HT). Sorry, but that is all I need to hear, along with my experience of treatment being a white guy in today's job market.

This is all about the rich getting richer. Remember the movie "Freejack"? That's where we're headed. Two classes of people. Uber-rich and super-poor. There will be no middle class in 100 years.

You should rent the documentary "The Corporation".

[Ralph E.]

Damn Ralph, you are one bitter man....

as far as the MBA thing goes Ralph I agree to some extent about jobs going over seas but in regards to MBA or not...a poor worker with an MBA is still a poor worker. Education IS important but you can't hide behind an MBA if you have no common sense or drive. From my experience some (not all) folks think that since they got their MBA that they dont have to work hard or feel they are entitled to something but have no real world experience

So now i'm lazy? Thanks for that without knowing anything about me...

I worked/owned a small software distribution company for 18 years. I have done everything from programming, design, training, setup/installation, accounting, consulting... you get the point.

I have been told numerous times that there is no way any big company will touch an entrepreneur. I'm too much of an "independent thinker", they want "team" players. At 40, about to lose my house, no kids (and we did want them) I cannot (and will not) start over @ $30k. Not gonna happen.

So Shawn, bitter yes, lazy no.

[fett]

Wow, kids settle down. I know how far the original thread has been derailed. Now it's a pissing match. I will make an observation. A college degee as well as advanced degrees that we have earned from colleges and universities in the US are not considered "High Value" degrees when compared to foreign degrees. I know how smart I am, or used to be. I got my BA with little or no effort on my part. In the '70's the degree was "Free" and the effort to get one was minimal. Cal State Univerisity, Hayward 1974. We were punks and entitled to a degree. Our foreign friends were knocking their brains out to earn a degree. It was their ticket out of a life of nothing. I am not knocking anyone who has earned a degree in the US, but employers know that a foreign degree was earned by a person that really studied hard and was put through the wringer just to have a chance at a degree. India for example. Japan for an example. That's why they are so much in demand. Bill Gates said he needs 3000 people at Microsoft and he can't find them here in the US. What does that tell you about our educational system?

[Ralph E.]

Bill Gates said he needs 3000 people at Microsoft and he can't find them here in the US. What does that tell you about our educational system?

And you believe him?

"The tech sector, most notably, is suffering from the longest jobless recovery since World War II, having lost more than 400,000 jobs since the start of the March 2001 recession. The recession "officially" ended in November that same year, but for thousands of American tech workers, such claims of a full-blown IT rebound are vastly exaggerated." - By Marcus Courtney CNet July 2006

[fett]

And you believe him?

Yep. I do. Why not send your resume? You are in GA and he is in WA. He has a big hard-on about the fact we are not educating our kids in math and science. He may be the richest man in the world and he can throw billions of bucks all over the world, but the bottom-line for him is to make Softy even bigger. Boy, are you on a downer. And, quite frankly, you have a right to be. I guess it's a matter of going where the jobs are.

[Ralph E.]

This is ALL ABOUT THE MONEY folks, as explained below...


Foreigners filling U.S. tech jobs
Visa law allows pay rates at less than U.S. levels

By Rachel Konrad
The Associated Press

SAN JOSE, Calif. - Scott Kirwin clung to his job at a large investment bank through several rounds of layoffs last year.

But it was tough for Kirwin, 36, to relish his final assignment: training a group of programmers from India who would replace him.

"They called it knowledge acquisition,"' the Wilmington, Del., resident said. "We got paid our normal salaries to train people to do our jobs. The market was so bad we couldn't really do anything about it, so we taught our replacements."

Finally laid off in April, Kirwin sent out 225 resumes before landing a temporary position without benefits at a smaller bank - and swallowing a 20 percent pay cut.

Kirwin is among what appears to be a growing number of American technology workers training their foreign replacements - a humiliating assignment many say they assume unwittingly or reluctantly, simply to stay on the job longer or secure a meager severance package.

Their plight can be seen as an unintended consequence of the nation's non-immigrant visa program - particularly the L-1 classification. The L-1 allows companies to transfer workers from overseas offices to the United States for up to seven years - ostensibly to familiarize them with corporate culture or to import workers with "specialized knowledge."

It also lets companies continue paying workers their home country wage. Indian workers receive roughly one-sixth the hourly wage of the average American programmer, who makes about $60 per hour in wages and benefits.

A loophole in the law allows employers to transfer L-1 workers to the United States and then outsource those workers to other companies, says LeEarl Bryant, immediate past president of IEEE-USA, the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers. When that happens, American workers are often displaced because L-1 visa holders do not have to be paid wages in line with their U.S. counterparts.

"It's manipulating the system to avoid paying those people prevailing U.S. wages," Bryant said.

Tech bellwethers including IBM, Hewlett-Packard, Cisco Systems, Oracle and Microsoft use L-1 workers but won't disclose how many they import. Many bring in workers through consulting firms, usually Indian companies.

[fett]

I know all about that stuff. I used to live in the Bay Area. So stop breaking my balls. If a high-tech company can import the "Brains", they will. If the US Govt. allows it, a corporation will be all over it. Is it right to import people to take away jobs from the natives? No. This international network of workers going everywhere is fucking up domestic job markets everywhere. I really feel for you and I'm not sure there is an answer.

[Ralph E.]

Fett, not trying to bust your nuts, you're ok!

Just trying to respond to "some others" on here who would have you believe that the world is perfect according to Bill, and everything that lefty and righty (these days there's no difference, they're all elitists) tells you is 100% accurate and true.

And you are right, there is no answer. I am literally at a point where I am being told to scrap all my experience and education and start over. Go back to school (as if 8 yrs. of college means nothing) and literally START OVER. That's the great answer you will hear from people like HT...

It's really sad, but I joke about moving to India and having a better chance of getting a job. In reality these days, i'm probably right.

[fett]

The world is "Perfectly Fucked Up". Global this. EU that. Open your borders. Find the cheapest producer or worker and let the consumer buy it cheap. Does it matter that all of our textiles, shoes, funiture, cars and just about everything else have left the house? I guess not. I have a 23 year old son. He should become a plumber. Because you can't import shit. But for a plumber, "The shit stops here". Now, that was profound.:ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF:

[charvelguy]

Thats what my sister did.. she was a programmer/analyst for the county with a degree in computer science. Now she's completing a double masters in a field where she can independently contract herself to counsel. Essentially being self employed and paid by others medical benefits.

Fett, not trying to bust your nuts, you're ok!

Just trying to respond to "some others" on here who would have you believe that the world is perfect according to Bill, and everything that lefty and righty (these days there's no difference, they're all elitists) tells you is 100% accurate and true.

And you are right, there is no answer. I am literally at a point where I am being told to scrap all my experience and education and start over. Go back to school (as if 8 yrs. of college means nothing) and literally START OVER. That's the great answer you will hear from people like HT...

It's really sad, but I joke about moving to India and having a better chance of getting a job. In reality these days, i'm probably right.