Ya know who really pisses me off?

[RacerX]

Oh yea.. and one more thing regarding this "Made in the USA" thing.
Mercedes Benz cars are made somewhere in the USA. They used to be made in Germany.
Many of Mercedes cars are made in the USA now. USA citizens build them.
Mercedes is now ranked the most unreliable car you can buy.

Er, John, which MB cars are made in USA, exactly?

MB *is* in the bottom 10 of reliability, but the cars are still made in Germany.

Were you the guy who claimed all GM trucks are made in Mexico now? Because I know for a fact all the full size trucks are made at the Arlington Texas plant. Where my Buick was made. There is a sticker on the door jamb of every vehicle coming out of Arlington. It says "Made in Texas by Texans!"

[emperor_black]

Well. I dont know about MB's but BMW has a plant in south carolina where the new 3 and 5 series r made. I think MB went down the drain cause they bought crysler and hence some plants got merged and stuff like that. so, maybe they ARE being made here. Thank god mine was made 100% in germany. But it is not as reliable as my other Honda and its reliability is falling fast.

[hippietim]

Ok, so now I can't read/watch the news either, funny how you always know better than everyone else. You really should get into politics, you remind me alot of GW. You never hear or care to understand anything but your view of the world and arrogantly demean anyone who offers a difference of opinion...

Speaking of arrogantly demean:

And scumbags like Bill Gates who want UNLIMITED numbers of immigrants to come and take our technical jobs here in the US because they work cheaper than a white guy with an MBA?

Ralph, I am nowhere near what you seem to think I am. You made an outrageous statement IMO and I called you on it.

I'll remember those words when you lose your job to the brother of the guy you buy your slurpees from...

Now you remind me of GW.

This is all about the rich getting richer. Remember the movie "Freejack"? That's where we're headed. Two classes of people. Uber-rich and super-poor. There will be no middle class in 100 years.

It's funny that you say that. I know I've made similar comments on this board and had people tell me I was full of shit. I'm glad we agree.

And you believe him?

Yes. I cannot speak for any other company but I can assure you based on my own experience over the last ten years of interviewing and hiring people that it is true. At least for the candidates involved in product development - I have no idea what the job pool is like in finance, business administration, marketing, etc.

You have no idea how hard we try to fill positions sometimes. We get folks interviewing for development positions demanding big $$$ that can't do basic software development such as manipulate a linked list. We get folks interviewing for QA that can't test an alarm clock. We get folks that want to do product design that can't formulate a plan of any kind. And it's the same for people in industry and coming straight out of college. You have no idea how thrilled we are when we get a good hire.

The thing that kills me is that if you type in Microsoft Interview Question in Google you will find the answers to a lot of the problems we pose in interviews. I'm pretty sure that in a matter of minutes I could find a half dozen solutions to almost all of the questions I personally ask in an interview. It is no secret what we expect!

As for what immigrants are paid, I am not privy to what everyone makes but what I've seen has been consistent with what we'd pay anyone that filled the position whether they were a lily white suburbian or not. And it's not just cheap Asian labor as someone said in this thread. I have seen no particular bias to any country at all - we have folks from England, Russia, Germany, India, China, Japan, Canada, Poland, you name it. I have never even heard of them being paid less.

We try and hire the best people we can. Should I hire some "white guy with an MBA" when I know he can't do the job? Fuck that. I'll end up having to do his job too. I have literally been in that position. There was a dude that did a bunch of bad work. He was stubborn, arrogant, and disruptive. We ended up shortchanging other parts of the product to cover him. Even after being told repeatedly that his job was in jeopardy he wouldn't turn it around. He'd come in at 9-9:30 and leave at 3:30-4. His manager and his manager's manager were rewriting his code. I would be mortified if anyone had to rewrite my code much less my management chain. This fucker simply thought he was just entitled to his job. The smug look and sense of entitlement he had is what I see in soooooo many people that I interview.

So what are we supposed to do? Hire people we know can't do the job?

I hate outsourcing. I hate it more than you could imagine. We've been doing in-country outsourcing forever. Who do you think picks your fruit, paves your roads, cleans your hotels, cleans the office building where you work?

Then there is the loss of whole industries. What happened to our steel industry? What about our clothing and textile industry? Where are your clothes made?

What about furniture? While I'm ranting here...growing up in VA it was well known that you drive down to NC to get great American made furniture direct from manufacturers. So when we moved to NC a few years ago we went to buy some Oak Mission style furniture thinking this was going to be a great opportunity to get some nice furniture for a good price. A few weeks later it arrived and the fucking stuff was made in China! We're in USA fucking furniture central buying Mission style furniture - WTF? It never even occurred to us that it wouldn't be made in NC. We were blown away.

And the technology industries are next. If we can't maintain businesses here, we're fucked. You won't have to worry about immigrant labor replacing you at your company, it will be another company altogether and it won't be an American company.

Unless there is something I did not hear about, Bill Gates was promoting the idea of bringing highly skilled workers here, to make them tax paying citizens, with the specific intent of salvaging the tech sector in the US. Personally, I'd be thrilled to see those jobs go to Americans. Obviously I can't speak for Bill but I am pretty sure he would too.

Please point me to the great software product developers that can't get jobs. Send me their resumes. I promise you I will get the resume to a recruiter.

In fact Ralph, send me your resume and what sort of position you seek. I would be more than happy to pass it along. I seriously mean that.

[hippietim]

I find it amazing that some here show more compassion for an illegal alien (who is breaking the law just being here) than they do for an educated law abiding US citizen who is being screwed by our own governments policies on immigration and work visas.

+1

But hey, a guest worker program should fix it right?

[hippietim]

And you are right, there is no answer. I am literally at a point where I am being told to scrap all my experience and education and start over. Go back to school (as if 8 yrs. of college means nothing) and literally START OVER. That's the great answer you will hear from people like HT...

LOL - you couldn't be further from the truth. I don't even have a 4-year degree. I studied music for a few years and eventually took an interest in computers and got a 2-year degree in Information Systems.

And you say I have this narrow view of things. You know nothing about me.

[eakinj]

You got that right... 6 prime years of my life wasted at Lockheed Martin building the Aegis Radar. And all for what, to be thrown out on the street? Thanks! Now Im struggling to make ends meet, cant support my family (g/f and her daughter), can barely pay for my house and cant find a job that pays near as much. Any Im supposed to be worrying about Africa? Fucking AFRICA? FUCK YOU BONO. Take your views and your gay assed fruity fucked songs and shove them up your opinionated ass.

I feel your pain on this, when the bubble popped in the bay area, from 2001 - 2005 I was basically unemployeed (I took survival jobs, Dollar tree, etc) I'm just now getting back on my feet and I'm taking care of a cancer patient (Parent)

I'm not really anti-Bono making people aware of what's going on, there are a lot of people dying over there and it is tragic. I just get tired of rich rock stars and movie stars babbling on tv about other countries when for a long time I could barely afford the medication to keep my mom alive.

But in all honesty, if Bono got on TV and started to try to bring awarness to another states issues, I'd probably care just as little but I'm still recovering from several hard years.

And Bono doesn't really impress me, there was some story about him flying his hat to himself in first class because he wanted to wear it on stage. I'd have been more impressed if he had spent that money on one of his causes instead.

[hippietim]

You got that right... 6 prime years of my life wasted at Lockheed Martin building the Aegis Radar. And all for what, to be thrown out on the street?

I worked on some of the test servicing stuff for AEGIS. I had to travel to Port Hueneme a lot - that was a nice perk of that job.

I haven't done that stuff for over 10 years now but when the last time I was in DC some friends said that there is a lot of DoD work right now.

[charvelguy]

I'll say this.. Kayne West & Raw Soul somewhat tees me off more than Bono does... but one does with their own money and their own time is their own business.. at least Bono is trying to promote awareness for a cause in need. Kayne West will probably just get into guinness book for most expensive takeout. Good publicity stint tho.

I see that American Idol is going to make donations to Africa as well as US areas needing assistance, which is a great idea.

[El_Kabong]

2 legit...2 legit 2 quit...

[Shawn Lutz]

Perfect example Tim on some of MBA's who feel some sense of entitlement without having to work hard because they went to school to obtain an MBA.

I really don't want to get into the whole immigrant debate other than if the guset book is signed upon arrival then its all good, you are here legally.

Competition is what causes a lot of the American workers to be out of a job. Companies are hiring the cheaper workers with the same skill sets as the American counterpart. This could be an immigrant worker or a younger American right out of school. I don't know a lot about development positions and writing code but I can tell you the company I work for doesn't have very many Americans in that role. We have them from all over the place, Russia, Bosina, India, Pakistan, Korea, Twain etc. I don't have the exact reason for that but my gut tells me its all about salarys...these workers accept the position and salary where the American is probably holding out for a better salary.

[RobRR]

I worked on some of the test servicing stuff for AEGIS. I had to travel to Port Hueneme a lot - that was a nice perk of that job.

I haven't done that stuff for over 10 years now but when the last time I was in DC some friends said that there is a lot of DoD work right now.

I worked in the main plant in Moorestown, NJ. And while there is work coming in, most of it is engineering work... by the time it (if at all) filters down to manufacturing, its too late. They already had a second wave of layoffs... about 1/3 of the workforce gone now... Aegis is winding down, not many more ships to build.

The problem is that for the last 20+ years, the main purpose of that plant was Aegis... thats mainly what we focused on. With Aegis almost at an end, we had to bring in other small jobs, because lets face it, contracts like that dont come around all that often.

Sure Im a little bitter... I mean I even went and got Microsoft Certified just so I could get out of the damn union and get a company job... and even though my dad and I knew alot of the right people, I still couldnt get a job there... and I was more knowledgeable than half of their IT staff. People I knew would call ME when they had problems, not the help desk. Yet, my dad got my best friend a job in IT about 3 years ago because he was "going to college"... again, another person that would call me for tech advise. He still has a job there... I dont.

I do think today, we focus too much on formal "education", and I think its a shame. Alot of good people are going to waste because they dont have a piece of paper that says they waster 4 years of their life and $100,000. (ok not all college is a waste, Im NOT saying that)

[Jack Napalm]

A lot of it depends on the position you are looking for. For senior level management you almost certainly need a degree. I am an executive with no degree and am currently looking to move to a new company. Not many place will look at me without it.

I just hired two programmers about three months ago. One has a Masters degree in mathematics and the other does not have any degree. I think since the dot.com bust there has been a change in hiring practices as well. Many companies are requiring a degree now and I think that has somewhat to do with that fallout. There were a lot of unqualified workers working in the dot.com industry and companies are more careful in their hiring practices.

There are still jobs out there but you may have to learn a few new things.

[RobRR]

Im not even talking any level management... I was hoping for entry-level or slightly above entry level IT. I wasnt asking much, because I know that once I got the position and my abilities were seen, that I would have no problem moving my way up the ladder as far as I wanted. Im a genuine hard worker who really cares about the job Im doing, which is why I wanted out of the union... I didnt belong there in the first place.

I had other union people literally not talk to me because I would actually work and make them look bad. I wasnt doing to to make them look bad, I was doing it because I cared and wanted to do the best job that I could. They were paying me good money and deserved a good product in return.

[Ralph E.]

I do think today, we focus too much on formal "education", and I think its a shame. Alot of good people are going to waste because they dont have a piece of paper that says they waster 4 years of their life and $100,000. (ok not all college is a waste, Im NOT saying that)

Not disagreeing with your experiences, but mine have been just the opposite.

Having worked in/owned a small business for 18 years, I have a very small "network" to use now that I need to find work. My degrees mean NOTHING in my quest for work here in Atlanta. It's been told to me many times it's all about WHO you know, not WHAT you know.

[hippietim]

Rob, I'm not sure if this is an option for you or not but have you looked elsewhere in the country? I know that here in the Research Triangle area there are a lot of jobs coming up in all flavors of engineering and IT. And the cost of living here is much more reasonable than the Seattle or DC areas where we were previously.