Ya know who really pisses me off?

[jgcable]

Er, John, which MB cars are made in USA, exactly?

MB *is* in the bottom 10 of reliability, but the cars are still made in Germany.

Were you the guy who claimed all GM trucks are made in Mexico now? Because I know for a fact all the full size trucks are made at the Arlington Texas plant. Where my Buick was made. There is a sticker on the door jamb of every vehicle coming out of Arlington. It says "Made in Texas by Texans!"

Hey Ron... ask and you shall receive. http://www.mbusi.com/

[hippietim]

Tim mentioned guys not coding well. When I was doing that I used to finish stuff in 1 hour it would take my boss 8 hours to do. There were times I wrote 500 line programs of the top of my head that ran perfect the first time out (without testing subroutines). I've done file conversions that people said couldn't be done.

What does it all mean? Nothing.

That means a lot to me - but that can be difficult to convey on your resume or in an interview.

Because if I don't know the right person, look the right way, interview the right way, etc. then the talented don't even get a shot.

That's what pisses me off. These companies say they can't find qualified people, but from where i'm standing, they're not looking very hard.

Where aren't they looking? I know our recruiters go nuts trying to find people. I've sat with them searching all the job/resume web sites, sifting through resumes, etc. What else can they do? IOW, how would someone find you? Again, I can't speak for any other companies but I know it's extremely difficult to find good people.

BTW, a guy that used to work for me on MSN and Windows came from the Atlanta MCS (Microsoft Consulting Services) team. He decided that he wanted to work on a product team so he relocated to Redmond. It's been a few years since he worked in that office but I could ping him to see if he's got a contact there. Let me know if you are interested.

[hippietim]

HR Block does your taxes with Indian accountants.

Not MY taxes.

Tim, when I was at Microsoft, my division initiated an effort to create a development arm at IDC (the Indian Development Center) to cut costs. My old boss relocated from Redmond to Hyderbaad to run that group on behalf of the division. Not saying that what you said was B.S., but the attraction to cut costs by going overseas was attractive to upper management irrespective of the availability of talent in the U.S.

I am painfully aware of the work going on at IDC. I know one of the guys that went back to be a development manager there. I know that part of the reason for starting that office was to get talent that would not relocate to Redmond. That's the same reason we have development offices in Israel, Ireland, England, San Jose, Raleigh, Fargo, etc. and research centers in England and China. Many people will not leave. A lot of folks jump at the opportunity to return to where they came from - that's what I did too.

What's funny about IDC is that all the work that I am aware of that was sent their way at least early on was stuff that American engineers didn't want to work on - convertors, build tools, etc. - basically grunge work.

[RobRR]

Funny you mention that, Im currently remodeling houses and mostly doing tile and flooring work. About a million miles from where I thought Id be. I love working on cars and can fix anything, but its not something Id wanna do every day.

My anger isnt directed towards Bono in regards to this subject... matter of fact, I wasnt event thinking about it until it was brought up.

Fact is, I just fucking hate Bono, and U2, and wish he would just shut the fuck up already.

[Cleveland Metal]

Pretty dismal state in America when dudes with your abilities can't get decent work.

Although I'm a pretty gifted guy. Not much I don't have an intuitive aptitude to do. Everyone comes to me for everything. I can build PCs, pretty PC savvy, build houses (plumbing, electrical, carpentry), build/repair most automotive systems, seriously audio and guitar equipment oriented. Fairly sharp dude.

At 42, and limited "documented" education, this just tells me I'm pretty much fucked.

Needing to get out of work that is abusive to my body like the above. I'm pretty baffled on what to do at this point as far a getting into a computer oriented field.

Hearing this stuff makes me wonder if it's even worth it.

[SeventhSon]

You got that right... 6 prime years of my life wasted at Lockheed Martin building the Aegis Radar. And all for what, to be thrown out on the street? Thanks! Now Im struggling to make ends meet, cant support my family (g/f and her daughter), can barely pay for my house and cant find a job that pays near as much. Any Im supposed to be worrying about Africa? Fucking AFRICA? FUCK YOU BONO. Take your views and your gay assed fruity fucked songs and shove them up your opinionated ass.

I completely sympathize with your situation. I am in high tech and I feel like I only have a few years left in this industry until they ship out my job to China. There are Chinese PhD's that will do software development for 1/3 the money of a U.S. college graduate. Tons of white collar jobs are going overseas. HR Block does your taxes with Indian accountants. Xrays are evaluated overseas. The list goes on.

But your anger is completely misplaced. Bono has zero to do with your situation. You should save your anger for our politicians (both R and D) who have sold out to corporate interests long ago. You should get the Lou Dobbs book. And watch "The Corporation".

Tim, when I was at Microsoft, my division initiated an effort to create a development arm at IDC (the Indian Development Center) to cut costs. My old boss relocated from Redmond to Hyderbaad to run that group on behalf of the division. Not saying that what you said was B.S., but the attraction to cut costs by going overseas was attractive to upper management irrespective of the availability of talent in the U.S.

[Jack Napalm]

Because if I don't know the right person, look the right way, interview the right way, etc. then the talented don't even get a shot.

That's what pisses me off. These companies say they can't find qualified people, but from where i'm standing, they're not looking very hard.

PM me your contact info. I know a recruiter in the Atlanta area. I can pass your information along. I don't know if he has anything available with your skills but you never know.

[RobRR]

Rob, I'm not sure if this is an option for you or not but have you looked elsewhere in the country? I know that here in the Research Triangle area there are a lot of jobs coming up in all flavors of engineering and IT. And the cost of living here is much more reasonable than the Seattle or DC areas where we were previously.

Tim, I dont have means to relocate unfortunatley. Im a 25 and own a house... and now with no money in reserve, Ive got to fight just to hold down the fort. I bought this place when I had my job, I knew I could afford it... had I known I would have been out of a job in a year and a half, I never would have bought it. That and Id have a hard time leaving my family.

As for good people going to waste, I agree 100%.

Tim mentioned guys not coding well. When I was doing that I used to finish stuff in 1 hour it would take my boss 8 hours to do. There were times I wrote 500 line programs of the top of my head that ran perfect the first time out (without testing subroutines). I've done file conversions that people said couldn't be done.

What does it all mean? Nothing.

Because if I don't know the right person, look the right way, interview the right way, etc. then the talented don't even get a shot.

That's what pisses me off. These companies say they can't find qualified people, but from where i'm standing, they're not looking very hard.

I couldnt have said it better myself. Now granted Im not a coder, Im more geared towards network administration and infrastructure. Hell, I can populate, build and solder a PCB as accuratley, if not more, than a wave solder machine, and almost just as quickly... (aside from micro-surface mount, that takes some time ). Problem is, that work is basically gone in the USA, so that skill basically does me no good. Still though, companies now a days seem to think that a degree somehow guarantees them a good, smart employee. That couldnt be farther from the truth. If more companies would start using "ability tests" for potential new hires, I think the market would become MUCH more profitable.

ANYONE can bullshit their way through a resume and interview... but not everyone can REALLY do the job they get.

[Ralph E.]

As for good people going to waste, I agree 100%.

Tim mentioned guys not coding well. When I was doing that I used to finish stuff in 1 hour it would take my boss 8 hours to do. There were times I wrote 500 line programs of the top of my head that ran perfect the first time out (without testing subroutines). I've done file conversions that people said couldn't be done.

What does it all mean? Nothing.

Because if I don't know the right person, look the right way, interview the right way, etc. then the talented don't even get a shot.

That's what pisses me off. These companies say they can't find qualified people, but from where i'm standing, they're not looking very hard.

[hippietim]

Rob, I'm not sure if this is an option for you or not but have you looked elsewhere in the country? I know that here in the Research Triangle area there are a lot of jobs coming up in all flavors of engineering and IT. And the cost of living here is much more reasonable than the Seattle or DC areas where we were previously.

[Ralph E.]

I do think today, we focus too much on formal "education", and I think its a shame. Alot of good people are going to waste because they dont have a piece of paper that says they waster 4 years of their life and $100,000. (ok not all college is a waste, Im NOT saying that)

Not disagreeing with your experiences, but mine have been just the opposite.

Having worked in/owned a small business for 18 years, I have a very small "network" to use now that I need to find work. My degrees mean NOTHING in my quest for work here in Atlanta. It's been told to me many times it's all about WHO you know, not WHAT you know.

[RobRR]

Im not even talking any level management... I was hoping for entry-level or slightly above entry level IT. I wasnt asking much, because I know that once I got the position and my abilities were seen, that I would have no problem moving my way up the ladder as far as I wanted. Im a genuine hard worker who really cares about the job Im doing, which is why I wanted out of the union... I didnt belong there in the first place.

I had other union people literally not talk to me because I would actually work and make them look bad. I wasnt doing to to make them look bad, I was doing it because I cared and wanted to do the best job that I could. They were paying me good money and deserved a good product in return.

[Jack Napalm]

A lot of it depends on the position you are looking for. For senior level management you almost certainly need a degree. I am an executive with no degree and am currently looking to move to a new company. Not many place will look at me without it.

I just hired two programmers about three months ago. One has a Masters degree in mathematics and the other does not have any degree. I think since the dot.com bust there has been a change in hiring practices as well. Many companies are requiring a degree now and I think that has somewhat to do with that fallout. There were a lot of unqualified workers working in the dot.com industry and companies are more careful in their hiring practices.

There are still jobs out there but you may have to learn a few new things.

[RobRR]

I worked on some of the test servicing stuff for AEGIS. I had to travel to Port Hueneme a lot - that was a nice perk of that job.

I haven't done that stuff for over 10 years now but when the last time I was in DC some friends said that there is a lot of DoD work right now.

I worked in the main plant in Moorestown, NJ. And while there is work coming in, most of it is engineering work... by the time it (if at all) filters down to manufacturing, its too late. They already had a second wave of layoffs... about 1/3 of the workforce gone now... Aegis is winding down, not many more ships to build.

The problem is that for the last 20+ years, the main purpose of that plant was Aegis... thats mainly what we focused on. With Aegis almost at an end, we had to bring in other small jobs, because lets face it, contracts like that dont come around all that often.

Sure Im a little bitter... I mean I even went and got Microsoft Certified just so I could get out of the damn union and get a company job... and even though my dad and I knew alot of the right people, I still couldnt get a job there... and I was more knowledgeable than half of their IT staff. People I knew would call ME when they had problems, not the help desk. Yet, my dad got my best friend a job in IT about 3 years ago because he was "going to college"... again, another person that would call me for tech advise. He still has a job there... I dont.

I do think today, we focus too much on formal "education", and I think its a shame. Alot of good people are going to waste because they dont have a piece of paper that says they waster 4 years of their life and $100,000. (ok not all college is a waste, Im NOT saying that)

[Shawn Lutz]

Perfect example Tim on some of MBA's who feel some sense of entitlement without having to work hard because they went to school to obtain an MBA.

I really don't want to get into the whole immigrant debate other than if the guset book is signed upon arrival then its all good, you are here legally.

Competition is what causes a lot of the American workers to be out of a job. Companies are hiring the cheaper workers with the same skill sets as the American counterpart. This could be an immigrant worker or a younger American right out of school. I don't know a lot about development positions and writing code but I can tell you the company I work for doesn't have very many Americans in that role. We have them from all over the place, Russia, Bosina, India, Pakistan, Korea, Twain etc. I don't have the exact reason for that but my gut tells me its all about salarys...these workers accept the position and salary where the American is probably holding out for a better salary.